Second Saturn Return Inspo

The musician, artist and grunge icon Kim Gordon is an inspirational role model for handling your second Saturn Return. And, Saturn transits become easier with age – really.

If you have not seen the excellent Elle mag interview with her, read it – or scroll down for some extracts.

She’s enjoying a creative and spiritual renaissance in the wake of her second Saturn Return – a challenger fuqer of a transit that saw her both battle breast cancer and divorce her long-time husband Thurston Moore.

It’s poignant because they became lovers and formed the band Sonic Youth together over her first Saturn Return in the early Eighties. It was obviously an extremely difficult year and there is apparently a third party involved on her husband’s side but you know what? Her work is noticably richer and more varied as she emerges from this snafu.

The perma-cool triple-Taurus (FYI Giorgio Moroder is also a triple-Taurus – note the stamina) is thriving.

The first Saturn Return occurs in our late 20s. It synchronizes with realizing that you’re not immune to various societal realities (money, tax) nor invincible to aging.

The second Saturn Return, 28/29 years later, is easier in that Saturn is the Time God. His transits and natal chart placements are easier with maturity.

It’s harder because rather than dealing with merely turning 30, you’re more aware of actual mortality and ageism.

You need to have a coherent, hands-on policy toward health and money while being vigilant against those who would “mark you down” merely because of the time you’ve existed on earth.

If you’re fortunate enough to make it to your second Saturn Return, you’re unlikely to have tolerance for synthetic relationships. You know who you are and have gracefully stepped out of previous roles or disguises.

You know a hell of a lot more than most people give you credit for. Hilariously, you often become ‘invisible’ just when you can stand in your own skin and have worthwhile wisdom.

The second Saturn Return builds on the first and often echoes it in downright eerie ways. But you’re unlikely to be seeking to prove you can make it in the eyes of society or prove stability via relationships and children.

That trait (being empowered by letting herself feel vulnerable) is much in evidence when Gordon discusses the recent past. She’s sad, and unafraid to show it, but she’s also clear-eyed about how the dismantling of some areas of her life has freed her up in others.

“When you’re in a group, you’re always sharing everything. It’s protected,” she says of being in Sonic Youth. “Your own ego is not there for criticism, but you also never quite feel the full power of its glory, either.” She’s done with that for now. “A few years ago I started to feel like I owed it to myself to really focus on doing art.

Gordon stayed home and listened to a lot of hip-hop. “Rap music is really good when you’re traumatized,” she says…

We’ve finished the dregs of our wine, and the sun has set. I’m interested in something Gordon was filmed saying about imprisoned members of the Russian activist punk band Pussy Riot:

“Women make natural anarchists and revolutionaries, because they’ve always been second-class citizens, kinda having had to claw their way up.” Gordon nods as I read back her quote: “I mean, who made up all the rules in the culture? Men—white male corporate society. So why wouldn’t a woman want to rebel against that?’


112 thoughts on “Second Saturn Return Inspo”

  1. Im a Class A1 non conformist :-re the interview with Kim Gordan..all the best for your future Kim…lifes like that.
    It’s not only white corperate men who treat women as 2nd class,it’s all men with an ego.And women with ego who think they have authority in whatever..I’m a bitsa-mongrel and am under no illusion who’s who in any class fuqery..left 2 of my last jobs in 5 years due to women in hierarchy and a disgrace to professional ethics.

  2. Wish Upon a Star

    Mmmmm I’m 52. How do I find out when this starts?

    I get the health bit. I need to know be thorough with the money side.

  3. I love this site! I read everyone’s posts and pick up more understanding about astrology..

    Saturn has been transiting my 1st house since October (I think).. maybe that is why I have been so edgy and also going through “who am I” stage. I am losing touch my family to gain a “me” perspective. I have always lived for them, needing their approval etc. As I see it they think I am selfish. Well, sorry but this time is about me and understanding who I am and how to make a difference in others eventually. I am still into “me”.. but I am getting “itchy” I think someone posted. Hopefully something is coming down the pike to clear the snake skin or cocoon I have been in until age 45.

    Thanks!! xo!!

    1. I feel the same way – itchy and excited to be more of myself – but uncertain as to what is to come…it feels very in between but also very authentic in a certain way…glad to have this forum to know its not just me!!

  4. This is very interesting… Thanks mm… Aside from loving Kim and living this perspective… I loved the breeders! I’m having a major Saturn transit, 1st house, persona. There is definitely a shredding away, a major cleanse, at times much painful letting go of everything I’ve known and held dear…. But at the same time I’m seeing a blossoming of this authentic self that has space away from those ties which bind. I’ve been kicking and screaming even though I was aware loss was part of the Saturn deal in building new structure… It has at times felt unfair…. Lonely…. Not what I planned…. But when I surrender, there is this divine beingness that has a lOt more spaciousness…. Ive been smashing rock on the car stereo to scream out the cobwebs…. Ive lost very important people in my life because of the Saturn vibe/influence on my life and self. Boundaries, standing up for myself, not being walked over emotionally because I “understand” another’s pain! or lack of insight… The trouble w standing up for yourself is that the ones who felt better about you being down don’t come along for the ride… Its a terrible thing and I’d prefer it not to be true…. but love is love is love and self love, care, respect and trust is Saturn’s ultimate teaching… Authenticity, reliability, genuineness, dedication, creativity and passion grow out of this… One just has to be prepared to do some serious letting go!

  5. Kim rocks!!! 😀 I saw Sonic Youth at Enmore theatre many years ago. Was brilliant. I like Thurston Moore’s solo stuff too.

    I wonder if Thurston’s a Cap Asc too?. He never seems to age either!! He might be a Gem riser.

    1. My second Saturn return is 10 years away. My first was fantastic so I’m not worried. Just have to get through this Saturn transit!

      Wow! Can definitely relate to the 3rd para – “having to make it all over from the ground up. Hence the re-mantling of your self and your i.d with the heavier Saturn (and Pluto) transits”

      Saturn transiting my 10th and Pluto in 1st.

    2. Saw Sonic Youth perform at Chaser’s decades ago, with Nick Cave metres away…very intimate crowd, great night, gee I wish sometimes those years were still now…

  6. Last year I had my 2nd Saturn return and I have a natal Saturn/Neptune conjunction in Libra.
    Yes I did have to rebuild from the ground up. For the entirely of the transit I sat in an empty apartment with just the bare necessities; mattress on the floor, fridge, a card table and a couple of deck chairs.. My furniture was thousands of kilometres away waiting, waiting, waiting to be shipped across the country.
    Lonely, no money, no job, up to my neck in a legal battle, traumatised and feeling much shame that all my hard work and uni degrees had amounted to nothing.

    I had a lot of time to think, or should I say not think, just Be; Zen in a very empty space..

    But the great thing about the Saturn/Neptune conjunction is the ability to continuously evolve, to use Saturn’s insistence on integrity and structure with Neptune’s gift of dreaming ‘outside the box’ .
    I think this conjunction is way more responsible for the transcendental goings on of the late 60’s, when many of us with that natal aspect were in our teens and early twenties, than the then uranus/pluto conjunction in Virgo.

    I have this conjunction sextiling Pluto in Leo on the MC and my Sag.Moon, and trining my Aquarian Sun and Mercury on the IC/ fourth house, a Pluto/Sun opposition which Ive had to struggle with most of my life.
    However, my second Saturn return triggered a total transformation of how I see myself in terms of career and the opinions of others.
    It became evident that I would never make it through the male constructed ‘glass ceiling’ and I had no ambition to sell my innately female soul to masculinized ways around the office to ‘make it happen’.

    Post my Saturn return, Im in the process of starting my own business, based on my own values and perceptions/dreamings of how the world could be, and integrating/owning my Pluto opposition(= relationship to power) in the process.

    For women, the second Saturn return also often coincides with menopause, something I’ve welcomed into my life.
    Gone are the days of being driven by my hormones which, I submit, are largely responsible for Love Zombiesm .

    And,while Im not a complete biological determinist, I notice that post menopause has me making choices for myself rather than irrationally focusing on the needs of now ‘not so significant’ and ‘tenth house ‘Plutonian ‘ others.

    I sometimes wish that I could have been born post menopausal, post second Saturn return. 🙂

  7. OMG KIm Gordon is my doppelgänger sans the fire hydrant red lips!
    Have saved that pix to show some friends to see if i’m tripping or not.
    Just the face and legs 🙂 tho” both our arms show seriously hard work-outs, one with the guitar and one with the human body, both instruments of a different kind, but both can create music.

  8. I have Saturn going thru my 1st and am having the identity crisis to end all identity crises-I don’t know who I am anymore or what i want! It changes hourly!! Is this normal??

    1. I have Saturn permanently stationed in my first, but I am Gem Rising! This means I don’t know the answer to your question 🙂 lol.

      Actually I think the discussion of Saturn and identity is very pertinent though. Maybe the Soul is saying, I am more than this reaction (or set of reactions, or i.d.)., access Me?

      1. LOL Oh wow! I am Leo, gem moon, scorp rising!! Interesting combo we have, huh ! I love the Leo gem part, but the scorp rising kinda tries to hide it all…which frustrates my Leo-ness!

      2. Interesting! So I think a Gem moon & Scorp moon are super different. My sister has a Gem Moon, she uses language AS emotion instead of emotion imo!

        How do you express your Moon versus Asc do you think? It’s hard to say how people see me as I do change a lot (that GEM), but I guess I seem chatty and bright, till the conversation deepens.. then goes under earth, over the river styx and into Hades & back again..eek, yay! Totes confusing to some of course.

    2. Saturn transhiting my 1st: I am outgrowing my old skin, getting itchy and annoyed. Big changes are coming. 😉

  9. If Saturn about power structures then I think Astrology itself is quite Saturn ruled, no? He is the referee of the personality game, the “strands that make up your identity”.

    Kind of like the Superego is the referee between reality, the id and the ego. All those relationships have to be separated, understood, categorised, organised.

    “ANY Saturn transit seems to synchronize with the discovery that some of the strands that make up your identity are actually synthetic”.

    Synthetic personality strands, I like this term.
    Whatever the mind creates is real too, just sometimes those parts have outlived their usefulness. But ‘synthetic’ is excellent short-hand to describe something brittle, not good quality etc.

    Recently when I meditated, I saw the personality strand that I created in the war-like atmosphere of my early childhood. She was such a hard-ass (soz I love that word, must be said with US accent!).
    She isn’t useful to me as a mother, love, part of my daily life, so I recognised her and retired her from active duty in the process.

    I guess astro interested people are seeking method in the madness, which is another way of saying we are a bunch of control freaks? 😀

  10. Yah i don’t follow Sonic Youth much either but this interview struck me as being (a) way more interesting than most womens mag content and (b) a brilliant example of Saturn energy being intelligently managed. How she talks about some things being dismantled free up room for others etc.

    1. The article is definitely thought provoking. Although, I don’t completely agree with her. I refuse to see myself as a second rate citizen and never felt I was treated as such. But, I am painfully aware that powers that be want women to believe they are second rate and do not hold any power- but they are terribly wrong.

  11. I love this talk. I must have watched it 100 times when I was going through a marriage breakup a year or so ago. It makes so much sense to me and really gave me comfort.

    1. I’m glad I’m not the only one watching it over and over again post-heartbreak 🙂

      It’s nice to be reassured that loving and being honest and open about that is a GOOD thing. It’s so easy to question that when you’re breaking down and wondering how the hell you’ll ever stop hurting.

      I hope you are feeling a little bit stronger and wiser after your divorce xx

  12. Natural anarchists and revolutionaries? Nope, I don’t think so. Look at women and you see a group of followers. Is it popular to rebel? The majority of women are doing it. Popular to stay home and cook? Get together with your women friends and discuss the best way to do it. Look at the divide between career-driven women and stay at home moms or the ever present question of how to juggle motherhood and a job. All you hear is that there is no definitive answer. Bullshi* The “definitive” answer is to carve your own life niche, not try to squeeze your life into someone else’s idea of success. Millennial women are now holding more degrees and better paying jobs than their male counterparts. A success that came slowly and gradually and almost by default. No battles, clashes and wars ensued. Just women being better able to handle the stresses of the times. The same inner strength that is likely why they live longer than men. Women are social creatures who prize connection and understanding. Pioneering, not anarchy, is a strength that takes others to a new place, way or being. Anarchy and rebellion are most often an expression of insecurity. Weakness, not strength at all.

    1. I agree to some extent what you are saying. I see women traveling in packs following a central leader.
      It takes an exceptional woman to stand out and do what they want to do regardless of peer pressure.
      Pioneering vs. Anarchy I love it!

  13. Raché (Aqua/Tauri)

    Oooh, good timing! I’m writing an article on BPD/Jodi Arias and talking about how BPD is essentially “female hysteria” re-branded. If you play into cultural expectations and are prone to this kind of disordered thinking you will get worse…imo rebellion and authenticity is the only way to heal!

    I am not a Sonic Youth fan or even familiar with the band but several people have commented that I look like Kim (or “Noxema Girl”). I like her because she’s kind of an ice queen but seems like a genuinely badass yet chill chick who is just kind of introverted.

    And she’s dead on — hyphy rap is way theraputic. If I have an anxiety attack I often turn to Too $hort to calm me down and dissociate from overwhelm.

    Just about to hit my first Saturn return and kind of scared…my Pluto transit escapades make me feel like I’ve already done it already. Not again. Geez.

    1. i’m on the same page re saturn return after many a plutonic time. i’m sure we’re as ready as we’re going to be x

  14. beautiful! thank you for posting. thats such a big issue for me–i have the moon in aqua conjunct NN rising so i kinda wear my heart on my sleeve when i dont want to and i always feel very vulnerable but i do feel like its good for my in that way to be my truest self, maybe thats the NN. i think my virgo sun makes it hard for me to accept things about me that aren’t part of my ideals.

    anywya, thanks for sharing that, seriously

  15. Off topic – but having trouble with an Aquarius friend. I’ve had enough of the constant put downs by her. Her attempts at making her self look better out of anyone she is talking to – an individual or the whole group are just irritating. I have had an Aquarius female cousin treat me the same way. Anything I do/wear must be copied. She must make friends with my old friends and then put me down infront of them.

    I’ve been so nice and helpful to her in so many ways as she is an international student and I’m a home student and I just came back from my year abroad – so I know the difficulties. But there is no excuse for petty meaness. I explained that i have a particular aversion to being called stupid or dumb or similiar put downs – my Virgo sun and Libra rising won’t tolerate vulgarity. But she replied If I am being rude to you it means I love you!!! – WTF?

    Is this the price people pay for kindness?

    1. Tell her to cut it out, it’s not cute or funny. If she does it again, kick her to the curb.
      Enough is enough.

    2. electric eel libran

      does this. person actually have any friends? if not, get away from her. cut her off. she is a qi-leech. she holds onto you fiercely because you are fueling her.

      if she has other real friends you probably just don’t play well with Uranian energy. make some new friends you do get along with,

      1. I agree. I had trouble with a friend recently who did the same.
        It’s not cute or funny to put others done unless, you’ve known each other forever and the friendship is based on playful ribbing and teasing. Otherwise, it’s not appropriate.

      2. No its not cute or funny. It hurts a lot and puts me in a bad mood. I learnt from my experience with my cousin that she just needed my attention every time and it was a way to wind me up. So I’ve learnt my lesson and try not to continue the discussion with her.

        Qi-vampire is exactly what I think she is. I thought maybe it was me being a nasty person but other people have questioned how I can tolerate her behaviour and have really thankfully stepped in and defended me. Somehow her put downs always backfire and hit her is the ass 😛

        My fiance has Mars in Aquarius and just recently I had to stand up for my rights and make him see how his communication style may hurt me. I love him for the fact that he gave me an ear – took a step back and realised I’d had enough. But only because I blew up. Im happy tho that its made us stronger and cleared up things for us. But this ‘friend’ has pushed me too far.

      3. Electric Eel Libran

        if you have clearly voiced to her that her comments hurt you and she continues to do them over and over; she is not a friend. friends don’t do that.

        I know i can run roughshod over other people’s feelings. I rib my true buds pretty hard because I do care about them, but if they say I am being a dick, I stop. It’s really simple.

        Don’t stay with someone abusive.

      4. agreed. She’s jealous of you and is not a friend. Watch your back. Best to have only one true friend then lots of fremenies.

    3. Raché (Aqua/Tauri)

      Hey…speaking as an Aqua (albeit with lots of other strong planetary influence) and a hyper-fixed sign person I look back on my younger years and see that I externalized my own insecurity and lashed out at others during times of bad stress.

      If you sit down and have an honest chat with her where you ask if she’s okay and that you’re worried about her she might let her guard down and apologize if this is the case…I think that Aquas can be really stubborn and have a hard time admitting that they are not 100% right. HOWEVER…if she just puts you down more when you try and show empathy and express interest in her wellbeing/saving the friendship you gotta move on! Toxic people are usually just really hurt people at their core but that doesn’t mean YOU need to put up with them until they decide to get real and decide to change.

      1. Well said.. “hurt to the core” is the best description for these types of people. It is very sad because they don’t realize that they are doing it! They have been brought up with feeling less of themselves and they find someone to try and put down!. They are generally good people but they don’t see it.

    4. Hello neighbor, I am a Virgo Sun with Libra rising and I deal with it all the time. It’s actually a Virgo thing.. we have very high standards and work hard at being stable. When friendships show up to make us feel less of ourselves we get thrown off. It doesn’t make sense because we want so much to help others.. at least that is what I know of myself now. We think of others first. I am extremely loyal and will take the hits so many times. When friends ask for help I jump to help.. I step in to protect people (Virgo / Libra and my years of martial arts training). So.. IMO.. there is nothing I can do to change anyone but I will be politically correct and say what I feel is accurate from my experience or perspective to help them and leave it at that. Anyone who has the nerve to try and put you down is not very happy with themselves. They need to make you feel less of yourself because of their insecurities. They see you strong, stable, confident and positive and it intimidates them. This is in regard to any sign. They need to strike. It is actually called “bullying”.

      My brother is an Aquarius and he has been very rude to me for the last year. I won’t tolerate it. If I know I am right I will stand my ground.

      Have you been friends with her for a long time?

      1. My other friends have suggested that she may be jealous of my personality – like you described yourself – I’m extremely loyal too, strong, stable and positive! So yes she is bullying me/striking our from her own insecurities.

        Thanks to all who commented! Truly I am humbled…I had just come back from lunch with her after she’d constantly put me down for 3 hours staright – I had had enough!

        Next year she will be living on the same floor as me in dorms so i need to create boundries from now or cut off completely! Its worse because I’ve confronted her about it yet she explained it away.

      2. One trick, and you can take this or leave it, is to use her behaviour as a mirror for what you unconsciously do. It takes a bit of guts, and it isn’t appropriate for every relationship/situation, but if someone is really triggering me, then that is what I do. In this instance you would ask yourself if you are doing exactly the same thing but in another way.
        In particular look at how it might actually be calling attention to how you have a bullying relationship with yourself. “Do I constantly put down myself?” Very important question you should really look at, especially because your cousin used to do the same thing, and your partner also triggers you around this.
        You can also ask yourself, “why do I desire this kind of relationship”. And you have to be really honest, so some of the answers might be, I desire to be put down because it makes me feel small, upset, less than, humiliated. etc.

        If it helps at all, I’ve done all this on myself for years! The answers can be pretty surprising because they are in the unconscious. It makes you really take stock on how you are almost pulling certain things towards you.

      3. Agreed! Thanks I love exercises that help me to work out problems by addressing myself – since I can control my behaviour not other peoples.

        Will def give it a go!

      4. that’s a good point. Sometimes we are being shown that our sense of self needs to be stronger. I think that the time for diplomacy might be at an end with that non-friend of yours. My advice is,
        first, be the better person, always.
        Discuss this person with loyal friends – explain the situation. This means that others know where you are coming from and will stick by you when the shit hits the fan, and she cannot destroy your friendships.
        Have the courage ti publicly call this insecure and senseless (or plain old mean) person on their bullshit, if they try it again. Seriously, you have had enough. You’re an adult. You do not need to proceed in life with this childish crap. You might need to work on yourself a bit first – walking away from a friendship that will continue to be in your face – the same floor as you in college. This doesn’t nec need to be a shouting match but make it clear that you won’t put up with their shit anymore, and make sure that your friends back you up properly here so you have some support. She’ll probably respond by trying to bring you down hence you needing to be the better person and strengthening your friendships. So let her dig her own hole. you have better things to do, like be happy and successful.

      5. Sure Pi great advice, but to be honest I have found whenever I work on myself if I have done a good enough job on figuring out how I am also doing the same thing but in a different way, then the other person’s behaviour instantly changes. It is as though once you figure out how you are being a bit mean to yourself, or being unconsciously competitive, etc, etc, the other person immediately changes their behaviour and stops doing whatever. Or they notice that you simply don’t react the same way and they stop.

        This has happened to me countless times.

        For example I had a work colleague who was incredibly annoying and used to get really worked up and hyper about things. It took a bit of work on my behalf, but I finally sat down and tried to ask myself if I was like that too. And I slowly realised that, yes, in certain areas of my life I was a bit, I just didn’t want to admit it. Now whenever I see her, which is much less often, she is still annoying, but it doesn’t get under my skin at all.
        By the way, everyone at work finds her a little difficult, so this can be for people that are generally difficult. But the incredible thing is that as soon as I figured out how she was mirroring my own unconscious behaviours, we pretty much stopped working on the same day. And she stopped being so intense.

        All of this is a long way of saying you actually don’t have to have the giant “you do x, y, and z, and it upsets me”. By owning your own stuff, they will simply stop.

      6. Her put downs are always said in a manner so that she can turn it around and say “ohh it’s just a joke! stop being so uptight”. But the remarks are small jibes at my personality/ the way I do things. Just ughhh negativity.

        Today I left her to walk behind me when the opportunity arose and didn’tlook at back – I think it gave her space and she changed her approach. I ignored her put downs in a meeting!! And she was shocked – yes the old me who learnt to do this in the first term has returned! With all your love and support. I’ve had the x/y/z hurts me talk – she doesn’t want to respect my wishes – so its now evolve or dissolve out of my everyday life and become a hi-bye friend!

      7. VSLR.. also.. TRY.. sometimes difficult… but try to just smile when the negative comments come your way.. Honestly having sorrow for what they are dealing with helps with the response to their negativity. Just understand that they are SO sad, want you to hurt and if you feel strong enough to say that YOU are happy with yourself, then just smile to them, say “I understand”… and walk away. They won’t know what to do with it. Trust me..

        I honestly feel so hurt when I hear about people who want to make others feel bad about themselves. It has nothing to do with you.. if has to do with their upbringing..

        I have been well trained in being bullied and although difficult to lash out… knowing the signs will help you tremendously.. it has nothing to do with you.. it’s their baggage they want to give to you!!

        Good luck!!

      8. Thanks sweetheart for the reminder of a simple smile and ignore the comment technique hehee – its actually quite effective!

      9. Good luck to you VSLR! I am glad to see you picked up some new strategies from this group to deal with your Aqua.. It will help with future Qi Vamps that you might come across!


    5. Love earl gray tea!

      Oh I’m sure there are plenty of Haute Aquarians around – I’m just incapable of attracting them.

      “People treat us how we let them” – I have learnt this with a few other challenges in my young life but I suppose i needed to hear it again.

      Thanks to all those who commented – I feel uplifted, strong and supported. I hope I can be there for you all in the same way!! xx

  16. Electric Eel Libran

    thanks for posting this Mystic!

    Those fixed sign square couples just seem to last so long. I knew another Taurus-Leo couple and they lasted for like 15 years before finally calling it quits….and then another Taurus-Aqua couple that lasted like 11 yrs.

    Still sort of sad about the Siouxsie/Budgie breakup as well.

    1. LeoEscapeArtist

      EEL, great insight. Although my Aqua guy and I never married, we went wayyy past the expiration date. Saving a relationship turned into self-destruction. Crazy…I know.

      MM, yes, thanks for posting.

    2. Yep, this is true… Me and the Scorp (Leo Asc) lasted 17 years – waay past our use-by date! And my Toro sis and b-i-l have been together for almost 27 years (though from all appearances they have evolved nicely together: Both Aries Asc and non-fixed fire Moons). Weirdly both our unions produced fixed Sun children – Aqua x 2, Leo and Scorp. My multi Aqua girl being the most fixed of all – Aqua Sun, Scorp rising with Toro Moon!

      1. And with a Leo Mum, Bro and now Step-Mum, a Leo Rising Dad, why would she need any Leo? She’s Cancer MC with Leo 10th/11th house cusp. Soz slightly off topic here! I’m definitely missing my cubs, they’re in my dreams every night.

    3. I bet all those fixed square couples had other compatible synastry going on though – Venus, Mars, Moon Saturn etc.

      Kim and Thurston have incredible astro if you look it up.

  17. I’m only a few years away from my 2nd return. When Saturn comes back to Capricorn. It will loosely conjunct Pluto around the same time. Gulp. If that’s not a reason to get my shiz together nothing is.

      1. Maybe OK, as have trine virgo stellium, pluto uranus, ascendant, jupiter…but natal North node is Aries 8th…

  18. 12th house virgo

    I agree with women being natural anarchists but disagree that it’s in response to male power structure. Anarchy does’t recognize socially constructed power. Women are natural anarchist perhaps because they are so good at giving power away – thinking more about what it takes to birth and raise a child than pleasing a mate. Motherhood is a powerful anarchy. Even an illiterate impoverished woman can challenge the powers that be simply by teaching her child the mother tongue.

    1. yes!
      I agree women make natural anarchists and revolutionaries I however, never felt like a second class citizen and refuse to hang out with anyone who would.

      1. Always thought that women’s love for their kids makes them continue outworn paradigms as they are too caught up in coping with everyday life to change things.
        Small changes can have a big impact though, especially daily, a few minutes can change a life be it explaining something, speaking a truth etc.
        Women also have a lot of trouble with the throat chakra despite the fact they talk three times as much as most men in a day, as truth talking isn’t encouraged.

      2. To Andy, re throat chakra, i have found the opposite in that the men have communication & creativity blocks in the thyroid area but i believe it is regional as not so much with eastern states and americans.Gifted with the gab and more confident perhaps

      3. I see that too overworked, underpaid exhausted women too tired to fight back. Often some my friends like to indulge in celebrity gossip and shoe shopping talk to avoid real issues.

    2. electric eel libran

      very interesting. I’ve been reading a lot about how now there is a push to recognize the mate as the #1 relationship and kids second instead of the backwards way people have been running it, Children grow up with inflated self worth and marriages dissolve so goes the idea the way things are now. When i look at all the marriages i know that have exceeded 30 yrs they really do make their mate #1 even though they love their kids too.

      1. 12th house virgo

        My point isn’t that children rule a woman’s world or about marriage. Just that anarchy is submission to natural order, survival of the fitest, and reproduction of the species is part of that. It’s not a response to perceived social power. Survival is the power naturally expressed. And survival of the species comes with sacrifice. Pregnancy is dangerous to a woman’s health sometimes. Why do it? Why give up power? There is something in being a woman – it’s natural to give in to the larger need to survive. It is a submission to gain power. I’ve thought about anarchy a lot. It’s not a system, but a balancing approach. Marriage I’d another topic, imho

      2. 12th house virgo

        And it’s not about the supremecy of motherhood. Women – child bearing or not – age better in terms of maintaining social relevance – often as care givers to other living things, young/old plant or animal.

      3. 12th house virgo

        I mean – women have longer life opinion is not more important than that biological fact – nature favors women in some mysterious way

      1. 😆 Totally agree. It traumatises me!!! Can’t stand it!!! I went to the launch of a digital music streaming service recently, where a variety of bands performed live and as soon as Urthboy – an Aussie hip-hop act came on stage I just had to leave. It was torture to my ears. And all the hand waving and posturing. It’s so ridiculous. 🙄

      2. I wished I liked it because, it’s literally everywhere and everyone including grandma’s love it. I see bros trying to act tough and intimidate others…not my scene at all.

      3. electric eel libran

        i don’t care for the rap/hip hop out there that is all about the posse, im better than you, bitches and hos, and bling or whatever. gah boring. but there is plenty of rap out there that is breaking that mold. blackilicious and death grips come to mind. their lyrics are about topics like oppression, govt. wrong doings, etc…

        anyways i used to be one of those people who said i would listen to anything except rap and country but nowadays it is the mark of a bland individual to say that. i do believe music evolves and changes and there is plenty out there.

      4. I KNEW someone was likely to jump in and make the comment you did. I was just making a sweeping statement as a Scorp with Saggo moon typical does.

        I’m a music fiend and well aware that music evolves and a lot of the rap/hip hop artists and producers are breaking new ground. DUH! It’s not news to me.
        Dj Shadow for example – the “Endtroducing” album is in my top 10 albums of all time list. And after I posted my comment I heard a song on the radio by Wu-tang Clan and thought – oooh I don’t mind this.
        I like whatever pleases my ears but GENERALLY rap/hip-hop is not a genre that I seek out or turn to when I need inspiration. I don’t have the time for it because I struggle to keep up with all the new stuff in the genres I actually do prefer. There’s so much good music out there. I have list upon lists of new music to explore.

        And I freakin’ love country!… 😀 Well, the alternative indie stuff anyway.

        My comment about Aussie hip-hop still stands though. It sucks. But of course some people might like it and that’s fine.

      5. electric eel libran

        yeah i looked up urthboy on youtube ……
        um… i want my 3 min back. :(. not my style.

  19. Unconventional Gemini

    Of course Kim is right about men making the rules – but the women of India, Bangladesh, China and anywhere in the world but western, eastern and northern Europe and N. America would successfully argue that the norms under which they live are governed by their men….not white males.

    Perhaps this is nit picking but it behooves us to remember that for those women, the rules that their non-white male societies have created are intolerable for many of their own male population. So we see thousands spending enormous amounts to people smugglers in the hopes of escaping living hopeless lives under the conditions created by their fellow countrymen.

    A male friend of mine, educated by Jesuits, was taught that at heart, males are cruel, greedy, lazy, selfish beasts. Having worked in predominantly male environments nearly all my life, I have to agree. It is the rare man who doesn’t indulge his base inclinations and even rarer the man who gains mastery over them.

    1. I agree that to lay the blame at the feet of only western (taking that to be ‘white’) males is drawing a long bow. I also agree that testosterone and ego has a lot to answer for in many situations we see in the world.

      However, I think it’s sad that your friend was taught to believe that men are ‘at heart, males are cruel, greedy, lazy, selfish beasts’. I strongly disagree with this statement, even if there are definitely times that I do think and believe it. But it’s at those times that I make sure I remind myself, and spend time with, the men in my circle who are absolutely not this kind of person, to give me faith in the general goodness of bloke-dom.

      1. Also, to generate a norm of laziness, selfishness, etc is so not the way forward, imo. It allows an excuse for everything – the boys will be boys argument. sometimes I wish we could develop a social ‘centre of gravity’ which is strong, courageous, self-aware, generous, thoughtful, or whatever. for men AND women.

      2. yes!
        I know so many hard working good guys.
        I dislike the us against them mentality.
        But, yes question authority and rise up against those that suppress be they man or women!

      3. Wot she said! Making sweeping generalisations about any “group” is delusional imho.

      4. Thank you Pi .

        Unco gemini,
        Was the guy also taught that homosexuality is evil ?
        And that non believers will burn in hell ? Probably.

        To take a statement like ‘all men are asholes’ out of the context of who is saying it is just slanderess gossip.

        So I suppose using that logic, all women are slanderers and evil gossips.

      5. Raché (Aqua/Tauri)

        I agree. It’s black or white thinking and unfair. Men and women alike also have unique blends of “maleness” and “femaleness” irregardless of their actual gender.

        BUT. I do think that men are more power-driven and prone to doing whatever they can get away with whereas women actually are often victims but also willingly, subconsciously, give away their own power.

    2. We’re the Jesuits fuqing him at the time ? I read somewhere that they all do that. Young men are not safe around them.

      1. whaaa? talking about making sweeping slanderous generalisations! davidl, seriously, do you hear what you’re saying??


        I was just expressing the same logic used by Unco Gem , I thought that would be clear, apologies, just making a point that putting people in to big groups based on sex, religion etc and judging them is a dangerous and stupid way of looking at the world.
        Don’t worry some of my best friends are Jesuits 😉

      3. whew,, as we’re on the subject of Jesuits now, may i offer this? My son is about to graduate from a Jesuit high school and neither he nor I are religious (I used to be), but I have been thrilled with his education. They are not dogmatic and are fine with my son challenging them on the existence of God all the time. If we were going to generalize about the Jesuits though, I loved something that my father’s friend told me once – he said the Jesuits throughout history are always getting excommunicated from the Church, but they’re so rich and so intelligent, that they always get welcomed back in.

      4. David, my catholic priest took me to a movie when i was 13 yo. I asked him if that was ‘usual’, he replied:
        just coz a man’s on a diet doesn’t men to say he can’t look at the menu’.
        Was with the priest that married CowGirl & Aquaman in a pub 10 years ago and a horse called ‘Little Rosary’ was running. I gave him 20 dollars to place a bet as it was placed at 20-1.
        It WON! He silpped 200 into my pocket, the rest i dunno, didn’t ask.
        Both were Dominican NOT Jesuit…lol.

    3. so none of you know the history of british colonization of india? or the fact that indigenous people in latin america, africa, and NORTH AMERICA, by the way, australia, were/are being killed/marginalized by settler societies of european white people? a lot of conflict in africa didn’ even exist before europeans came. capitalist patriarchy came from europe. latin american sociieties had their own ideas about and women but the spanish brought patriarchal christianity with them and forced people with violence to give up their beliefs. bell hooks calls american society white supremecist capitalist patriarchy. black people in america originally came as slaves, by the way they aren’t in poverty or shooting each other to death because its their culture or some hegemonic scientific racist thought. its because they have been oppressed and systematically disenfranchized for hundreds of years. if you think calling out people on their whiteness isn’t fair then you are BLIND.

      by the way also— men are people just as much as women are people. to categorize a man as something is to label a woman as the opposite. Those ideas also perpetuate rape culture, i dont know what its like in australia but in america sexual assult is basically acceptable because of arguments like boys simply cannot control their sexual urges because they are beasts so by dressing like that she “was asking for it.” feminism and anti racism are based on REAL, TOUGH LOVE not separations and assumptions and hate.

      1. Uuummm, not BLIND. DO know history.
        Cool thy emotions, detachment furthers.
        Women Rule, they always have, some just haven’t been told.

    4. My bro in law has a Jesuit-y schooling and he is one of the most fair, generous, kind and christian (in the Jesus good way) I’ve met.

      I know both men and women can be cruel, selfish, lazy and beastly, etc. etc.

      I am a feminist but I’m not anti-men, I’m anti-rude, lazy and stupid PEOPLE. Can we please take a break from the gender/western vs other societies arguments?

      Most people in my life are basically kind and decent. Am I deluded? I don’t think so. Yes, I’m a ‘privelaged’ middle class Aussie but I meet all types at work and play…

      1. (‘people’ I’ve met) ‘privileged’ ? sp.

        ‘This is my simple religion.
        There is no need for temples,
        no need for complicated philosophy,
        Our own brain,
        our own heart is our temple.
        The philosophy is kindness.’

        Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama

      2. Was it Thomas (Moore or the apostle) who said ‘the temple in is your heart’?
        The other profound truth is ‘we are spiritual beings having a human experience’, not humans having a spiritual experience’.
        Was that an Edgar Cayce quote?

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