R.I.P. Margaret “Pluto” Thatcher

Filed in Libra, Moon in Leo

maggieO.M.G I look up from doing my Astro-Queries (some of you lead very interesting lives – i say this in awe, not to tut-tut) to see that Baroness Thatcher has passed on.

So okay she was Libra – we all know that and i once read a hilarious anecdote of how, a workaholic, she used to glide around the halls of power at (say) 2am, perfectly poised and coiffured, perfumed and terrifying as an army with banners to drunken m.ps staggering back to crash in their office.

That seems kind of Libra – the scent & the grooming, a hint of pass-agg in her perky “good morning.”

And the “iron fist in a velvet glove” epithet is TOTALLY Libra – don’t you think?

But Thatcher was actually fiercely Plutonic – She had Saturn in Scorpio Rising so Pluto was her ruler. Not only that, Pluto squared her Sun and Mars and it was opposite her Jupiter. She was famously not born to wealth or power but with Jupiter and Pluto in tight aspect, you damn well acquire it one way or another. Pluto was her Boss – not Venus.

I don’t usually like to like to look at d-dates but it’s worth noting that Baroness Thatcher was about to have her THIRD pass of Saturn across her Ascendant/Saturn Return. And a Pluto-Pluto Opposition. Sheesh.

Her Moon?Β  Leo…Betcha there are going to be some lovely details emerging about secret bouts of bonkers opulence behind her veil of stoicism and reforming zeal.

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383 thoughts on “R.I.P. Margaret “Pluto” Thatcher

  1. And so here’s what the Sabian Symbols have to say about Margaret Thatcher’s Libra Sun, at 19-20 degrees, from Dane Rudhyar’s book ‘An Astrological Mandala’.. beginning at *19degLib..

    A GANG OF ROBBERS IN HIDING.. Protest against disharmonic Social privilege..

    One might think of Robin Hood & his band, or early Bolsheviks in Russia robbing banks to finance the revolution. The protest may be against an unbalanced Society with its rigid stratification into classes can be seen as a positive factor, even if it challenges the principle of order, for it reveals dynamic qualities in individuals & the will to transformation. In another sense, it is the dark shadow of the ideal of “nonpossesiveness.” The question is: How valid & effectual is this kind of protest?

    What can this mean? Perhaps the fact that any effective resistance to the momentum of crystalised institutions should be organised if it is to be effective. Individuals alone are impotent in producing actual changes in Social Consciousness. A “group” must be formed. ie. GROUP PROTEST…

    While the following symbol reads, at *20degLib..

    A RABBI PERFORMING HIS DUTIES.. The ability to draw upon the power of an ancestral tradition in order to serve & inspire one’s fellow men & women..

    Here we see at work the constructive use of rather rigid yet effectual Sociocultural & “religious” patterns. The energies of the Collective Unconscious are channeled through well-defined, age-old formulas. This implies limitations & the possibilitiy of schlerosis or inertia with new situations, yet there is beauty & wisdom in such a ritualisation of behaviour & of thinking..

    This is the fifth stage of the fortieth five-fold sequence. At this stage the relation of the individual, to his or her community – & beyond it, the Universe – is seen in stabilised & effective operationi. INHERITED WISDOM can be focused through a person who accepts its limitions…

  2. Fab post @ whimsy et al, on US astrology – spot on and also the US attained a real peak with the pluto in cancer generation too – approx 1925 – 1940 I think.

    BTW Australia is Capricorn – 1/01/1901 the day Australia was created from the 6 colonies. Very apt I think – hardworking, conservative, pragmatic, but also status obsessed, materialistic etc – high cheekbones ? our landscapes against the wide sky? but I don’t want to bad mouth caps !!!

    Sydney is Aquarians – 26/01/1788 and I think that totally fits too – you can literally wear anything anywhere in Sydney, the glassy air-head skyline containing the water of the harbour is an abstract of the water pouring character – Sydney can be fixed, the best party friend you will ever have, fickle, ‘aqua mady ‘, air head, innovative to the max, a world class city but uncaring of its down and out, etc. Melbourne is Virgo – forget the date – it was gazetted whereas Sydney ‘landed’ -Melbourne earthy, sexy, creative, structured, efficient, stylish ( yes I’m a Virgo lol).

    Dates are day/month/year format

      • Thanks – glad you saw it – am catching up on the blog and wanted to see where the Maggie T stuff had gone πŸ™‚

        • i particularly loved your interpretation of Sydney’s built & natural landscapes combining as the water bearer.

          The notion that the US reached some kind of zenith with the Pluto in Cancer generation is really interesting – but I’m not sure how to read it…do you mean the achievements of the people born during that period or the events of that period itself?

          Also, Aus as Cap….remembering an idea that Caps often have difficulty in childhood – am I right? Might resonate with a history of establishment through conflict and violence, invasion/genocide (with understanding that that damage is not isolated in the past but is ongoing).

          • Agreed re Aust – all that angst saying “sorry” etc .
            with the generational Pluto, I guess it plays out the current sign placement ( ie transiting pluto in cancer) as well as seeds the generation ( natal pluto in cancer who spawned the ‘ me generation ‘ ie pluto in Leo

            Thoughts?

              • I don’t know Quin, but when I think of 25-40 Stateside I veer from Gatsbyesque wealth and indulgence to Steinbeck’s Joad on the road. I guess the children of that generation were the mid-century Americans….that evokes for me postwar flannel suits and suburban dislocation, the space race – which I think of as a grand folly but what do I know – and the civil rights movement.

                So no analysis for you, just a set of pop culture references gleaned at historic and geographic distance.

                I wonder what sign you think the UK is??!! VERY different culture tot he US. Which I think in part explains the intense disjuncture between Ding Dong heading towards No 1 and the American responses here. THAT would never happen in the States!

                • Nick Campion sets the UK birth chart for 25 Dec 1066, when William was crowned. Which gives England (at least) an Aries rising chart with A Cap Sun.

                  The US has a “Mommy Problem” with its Cancer Sun.
                  The Mommy is clearly England.

                  Or it could be read as a parent/child dynamic.

                  Either way, these two exist along the same astro axis, which is significant, given their common histories and mutual interests.

                  • Yes, it’s interesting homw much of this has become about the cultural gap between the Americans and the English.
                    Part of it must also be about how Americans treat their politicians as royalty, when the English already have a royal ramily, so are more likely to treat politicans with a strong degree of cynicismPart of it must also be about how Americans treat their politicians as royalty, when the English already have a royal ramily, so are more likely to treat politicans with a strong degree of cynicismPart of it must also be about how Americans treat their politicians as royalty, when the English already have a royal ramily, so are more likely to treat politicans with a strong degree of cynicismPart of it must also be about how Americans treat their politicians as royalty, when the English already have a royal ramily, so are more likely to treat politicans with a strong degree of cynicism.

    • LOL – I thought Aus. was a Cap but all the places I looked said Sagg!! Fits better than my interpretation – and all the Caps I know tell it exactly as they see it. They don’t mean to hurt, they think that truth is beauty.

      And it is.

  3. I have no idea if this is true, but someone posted it in the comments section of Eric Francis’ site (Planet Waves):

    “A Brit friend of mine posted this on facebook a few days ago:

    During a private conversation in the spring of 2010 the Baroness Thatcher reportedly expressed feeling β€œbottomless sorrow” for her influence on global culture, and β€œoverwhelming gratitude” at her acquaintance with LSD at the age of 84.
    She chose to take the drug as part of a private treatment programme for the management of dementia having developed an interest in it while campaigning for mental health services for ex-servicemen.
    β€œLSD has changed my perspective on many things,” she is said to have stated, β€œI thought I understood the whole dependency thing between individuals, but actually had only seen this in a needy way before. My recent experience enabled me to appreciate the interconnectedness of everyone and everything in a altogether new way, how each of us shapes the nature of everything, for ourselves and for each other.
    β€œI feel immense regret for the cultural legacy I have left behind. I see now that I viewed prosperity and politics from a narrow window, and though this had its comforts I was missing such essential values that are vital for the well being and exaltation of life. My hope now is that the world moves beyond the motivational forces of the previous three decades, which I’m sad to say I may have significantly contributed towards. There is such beauty in the world I had not seen before. It overrides the drive for centralised economic power, dissolves selfish reasons for going to war and brings to light truly collective means of organising society. Indeed, in general, there is a brilliance beyond reason.”
    Though a transcript of the interview was consented to the recordings themselves have been deemed too sensitive for current release. The Baroness was said to feel ambivalent about this.”

    • Wow. What an earthquake that would cause if it were made well known. Of course she’d be dismissed by her own conservatives as a delusional drug user. And the whole thing treated as a hoax.

      If this is true, perhaps she did not end as badly as we imagine.

    • That’s very well written. A part of me either feels it is possible it is true, or really wants it to be true.

      It does go back to our discussion whimsy about great people losing their way under the intense force of power. Power corrupts! Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

      As a fellow soul journeying home to Light I salute Margaret Thatcher. On a spiritual level at least, I believe all things can be forgiven.

      • lol, I can’t see MT using the words “centralised economic power” (since she was totally opposed to such in the first place), let alone “needy way” or “dependency thing”, I’m afraid. LSD can prompt insights as any of us who dabbled know, but I strongly suspect that whomever is reporting the conversation – if it occurred at all – is fibbing more than a wee bit to support their personal ideological position in relation to both economics, political ideology, and drug policy!

    • I believe it!! I honestly believe it! It is the biggest fear that we should have that we don’t treat people with respect and love before we pass. It will catch up to you. I was thrown the floor in 2009 realizing that. I honestly was on my hands and knees asking for Gods help and people.. He gave it to me. So, I think what I am trying to say is that any leader is NOT God (or whoever your spiritual leader is). If they think they are.. it will catch to them. In my position spiritually God has a plan for me and if I don’t listen He will place “signs” to say “Hey.. you better sto”.. you are doing good but CHANGE now!”. So I listened.

      Just saying..

      xo!!

      • Oh crap.. let me state “I want to believe it”.. I didn’t live there so I don’t know. I would like to hope that people get shown the way if you know what I mean! xo!!

        • Yah, I’m the one that found it. I’d like it to be true too, but it all seems a little too made up. But like Andromeda I also think that all things are ultimately forgiven. Everything is really in divine order, and some of us simply enjoy the drama of it all.
          We are all divine light no matter what role we played.

  4. It has been many years since I have commented on this blog. I think about 5 years, if I remember correctly. However, as the partner of Min the merciless, let me say, that I often retreat in the face of battle. Too many past lifetimes as a soldier, I think. Thank God for her throwing of pots and pans. Something, that I need to learn again.

    • πŸ™‚ Thank you for stepping in. Min is great, and you seem to be lovely yourself.

      Come and comment more. I do remember your handle from waaay back. πŸ™‚

  5. In order for that massive transformation to take place in Britain it needed a person with a big PLUTO . With this zap zone coming up (?) will we have a big PLUTO PERSON emerge to be the do’er ? Somehow it looks as if it is all going to be squeezed into a small time frame.
    Any suggestions on the possible pluto/uranus/saturn peeps ?

  6. Out of respect for Mystic this is my final post regarding this political arena. I apologize to ANYONE who thought I was “taking over Mystic’s blog”. Sun in Virgo, Libra Rising, Moon in Leo I am.. so I would like to say I am OVERLY protective of people who are my family, close friends and any business who I have found to provide me with the best service (Mystic is one of them). It is my nature to speak out about unfairness to others.. I do it everywhere. I don’t care what people think of me..people who have provided me with most support will receive my support when I feel they are being treatly unfairly “to my standards”… so I am guilty for thinking my standards are everyone elses. Again.. I apologize and I promise to NEVER comment on any political thread…

    PS: please know that I was trained to be an entrepreneur. From what I learned.. (1) customers are number #1 (2) conflict within my customer base is #2 to be resolved as quicly as possible… and I will leave it that. I should have consulted with Mystic before my post

    God Speed!! xo!!

    • Thank Ellie! And I know I should leave this alone, but it was interesting to read the customer bit. I guess that the thing is that there are few people on here who would regard themselves as customers. To think of a bunch of people, or oneself as a customer is to take things into quite a different arena, and the desire to resolve conflict is in line with Whimsey’s observation about how Americans avoid debate and try to smooth things over. – which I found very interesting by the way – thanks!

      • Hello Anon.. I don’t want to take your comment towards me incorrectly so I am just going to add a little bit more.

        In regard to running my own business (I don’t run one now.. I was hoping to and was trained by great mentors) I would not sweep things under the rug. I would be pretty direct with someone (customer) who is #1 putting down my business publiclly and #2 putting down members of my staff and how they perform under my company name publically. I would make sure that a discussion was had to try and clear the air, documentation would be done and if needed legal action would take place. Again, that is the Virgo in me (i.e. methodical, analytical and stubborn). But I agree with what you read from Whimsy stating the US avoids conflict. I agree completely that concern.

        Have a beautiful day! xo!!

    • Come on, Virgo Ellie. Don’t go. Stay and argue your point, and see that we can all have different points of view but (hopefully) respect others.

      You don’t have to be nice to people all the time, you just have to be you. You don’t have to agree with people, just state your point and listen to theirs. In this way, with a bit of luck and a following wind, we can all add to the collective knowledge of human nature. I really like the way you defend your friends and family. I do. (Cancer ASc, Cancer Sun, Moon/Mars in 4th house).

      Enter the debate, engage.Say why you disagree and I will state my reasons. I may even change my mind to your way of thinking, if i think your argument is reasonable and fair.

      Here’s a starter for one: the slave ships were named after events/names from the Bible. The Bible has a lot of quotes supporting slavery. One is: A slave shall obey his master.

      What are your views on that statement? (You will get a lot of people disagreeing with you whichever way you state it, but it is your undeniable right to state what you think). So – Go for it.

      • Thanks for your support Min.. I also had to comment on the Bible verse “A slave shall obey his master”.. Thank you for that because I was in the martial arts for 10 years that change my fuq’n life. Til this day I respect those I consider Masters. God (#1) but there are others in my lifetime who I respect. So, just saying, that I sometimes consider myself a slave to the experiences that I consider God Blessed and bringing me to a new level of understanding!!

        xo!!

    • I really respect you for still being here, and I a one of the people who bristles at your comments. But what I sense is a person who wans to know more about the world around them, and who is trying to engage with that world by putting forward their views, unaware of how others see them. I think you are really brave, and I wanted to amend my comments above to point out that it is your comments and not yourself I have an issue with.

      This is a great blog and there are a lot of amazing people on here. One thing we don’t do is self-censure. This was an Australian blog to start out with, and over the years more and more people from overseas have wandered in, which is wonderful. I know from spending a lot of time overseas that the very forthright way Australians often speak is frightening to a lot of Americans. If we think something is bullshit we say so. I don’t want this blog to be toned down by having people in here tell me what is the right way to express my opinions and what is the wrong way. The commentary above about speaking ill of the dead was particularly ridiculous, especially in the context of the death of such a famous and divisive woman as Thatcher.

      Virgo Ellie, continue on your path, but don’t try to censor the thoughts or the methods of others. In return, I will do my utmost to take issue with the issues and not the person!

      • Love that Seabird “but don’t try to censor the thoughts or the methods of others”.. the Virgo in me wants everyone to be like me.. a pain in the arse.. LOL!! xo!!

        • lol, Ellie. That is a very loveble thing to say: wry, honest, humble and self-accepting (something that Aussies really warm to and respect) It also resonates so much with me, as I have a big wallop in Virgo in my chart.
          I don’t like really nasty posts either, and try not to do that, but I can get uber critical when someone tweaks MY Virgo bug-bear issues: lack of evidence and reasoning given in support of strong beliefs or opinions. I just KNOW that I am often a boring pendantic long-winded pain in the ass on that score, lol. But can I pull myself up short on that? Often, not, when in full flight! Actually, now that I think about it, I suspect that quite a few others on this blog are of my Uranus and Pluto in Virgo generation, and that the same thing bugs them too, which might explain the last few days. You are a bit younger, yes? Not same Pluto generation? I can imagine that if you are of Pluto in Libra, you have been having a hell-learning-week, as the Pluto station squares your natal Pluto? Or maybe I am guessing wrong, and you are Pluto in Scorp? No doubt you have written on all this, so sorry if i don’t remember.

          Anyway, my point is that if you up your quotient of THAT component of your Virgo-ness, in posts here, I reckon the whole dynamic that has been going on in this post (and in which so many – including both of us – have either been aggressors or pass-aggressors!) will not be repeated, even in political posts!

          • Thanks Min, Seabird & Fi for leading the reconciliation so well. I have Pluto in Virgo, so that might explain my frustration with unsupported comments but Ellie the main point I wanted to make to you was ore about your deflection of critical comments with shallow counter-accusations. Sometimes when people criticise us it is about us. They highlight something that we need to take on/change, or that it would be helpful for us to take on. To see it as an opportunity to grow is the most productive thing. Of course each instance needs to be assessed in it’s own right but even being able to engage in this process is a more mature response than “you much be insecure”. I didn’t mean to be aggressive or nasty, although as I say I was frustrated, but if I didn;t have a fondness for you Ellie I wouldn’t have bothered. This is not about grandstanding and of course if there was an option to have had that conversation with your privately I would have taken that.

            I hope overall it can be seen as a constructive discussion! I like Mystic’s reminder about the discomfort and struggle that precedes the new skin x

            • Hi CC.. Understood.. of course I evaluated my response to some but honestly when it gets to using my personal “stuff” posted here as a reason to degrade someone I find that wrong. I have never tried to put anyone down using personal information from a post to get them to shut up. I started to shut up when I realized some people were providing similar posts about MT and they weren’t personally degrading others. That is where I find respect. They stay focused with the topic and provide enough “facts” to support their opinions. That is why I think one of my posts to your was “What do you want to know”.. I was asking that question to see what area of my opinion was unsupported and therefore lacked credibility. I understand that! So, let’s leave it as is. I Thank You for being a known poster here with a quest for sharing and friendly dialogue. Seriously.. I Thank You!! πŸ™‚

              xo!!

    • Hey Min.. I don’t know if you have post degrading comments to someone here but IMO.. I think Mystic enjoys when we interact between us all with friendly comments, details and/or facts. But when it comes to individuals trying to degrade a commenter personally to try and make them feel bad about themselves (even using posts from previous blogs on personal issues) that is when this site gets ugly.

      Keep it clean people. Stop the personal degrading, condescending comments to those who would like to comment on the opposite side of the spectrum with their opinions, comments, details and/or facts. That is what is called a debate.. not harassment. If you don’t have good information to challenge someone then don’t try to attack them with personal put downs!

      xo!!

      • Virgo Ellie, amongst many other things, you clearly don’t seems to have a grasp of what debating actually is. So in order to be helpful here is an excerpt from Wiki:

        “A debate, simply put, is like a game, where two or more speakers present their arguments intent on persuading each other. It is also, a contest, but rather an exciting one when both parties try to oppose the other party’s conclusion.”

        I read some of the claims of being personally denegrated on this post, but all I saw where legitimate challanges to other people’s ideas – which some people seemed to take personally.

        I would suggest that if you cannot handle having your ideas challenged, then don’t post them at all. It’s called leading with the chin ….

      • I don’t see anything wrong with Min’s comments, Elle. I think you’ve misread her tone.

        Mystic’s invited us to extend this topic of Thatcher’s legacy to include, ha, basically ALL OF WESTERN HISTORY. Particularly the themes of domination vis a vis religion and (later) corporatism.

        Thatcher and her policies didn’t just spring fully formed from the head of ’70’s Britain. Her legacy is a logical conclusion to two thousand years of distorted thought about the value and purpose of humans.

        • Elle, I also encourage you to check out videos of British and Aussie debate, particularly Parliamentary debate. πŸ˜‰

          In debate, we Americans are too concerned with pleasant and polite facades, at the expense of substantive and vigorous discussion. This way we can always accuse our opposition of meanness and unfairness if they ever approach us with a blunt, hard question. It’s an outgrowth of a pallid church culture that demands “niceness” as proof of sanctification. Why do we ever have to preface a sincere statement with “I don’t mean to be rude, but…”?

          More importantly, Americans are afraid of debate because they simply don’t have anything to debate with. They are generally uninformed about facts and have nothing to riposte to anyone’s post. The refuge of no-nothing’s is always “You’re being mean!”

          As a Cancer/Kataka nation, we prefer emotional persuasion. Hook us in our hearts, and you’ve got us. The other side of this truth is that we are suspicious of emotional manipulation, and we mistake ideas presented with vigor as emotional manipulation.

          We also resent anything that smells of revisionist family history. Come at us with a tale that might make The Family look bad, and you will find the front door bolted and a hungry Rottweiler on the porch to greet you.

          Just a couple of thoughts about miscommunication between cultures.

            • I don’t mean to be rude but you are remarkably self-aware for an american…

              jokes – we still do them round here… yes?

            • Exhibit One – A Self-Aware American. I find them on this blog. Thankyou Whimsy, and I love the astrological take. America as a Kataka! Australia is a Sagg – I think we really have in the past allowed a lot of different people to air their ideas without fear of reprisal. But the current political climate is very un-Saggitarian, and maybe that’s why we feel collectively like the party’s over thisaway.

              Serious debate is, or was, part of our political scene. I wish it was part of America’s as well. It would make a world of difference to…the world, if American politicians woould engage in real debate instead of moralistic sentimentalism.

              To Virgo Ellie – I am sorry, but your comments in here infuriate me, because they are everything that I think blocks America from truly being a great country. Uninformed, sentimental, unreflective, emotive, not backed up by fact or evidence.

              If a real real real debate happened in America, do you think the US would have its current gun laws for more than two seconds? Would the death penalty still exist, in tandem in states that outlaw abortion. Would there still be no serious healthcare safetynet?
              I would go on and on but I’m afraid that by the end of this year, my country may have begun to turn the clock so far back that the above may become our reality too…..

              Thanks Whimsy, you give me hope.

          • Whimsy – you raise some really interesting points about Americans’ response to vigorous debate and it explains reactions which have always puzzled me. Whenever I’ve been critical of US government policies (of whatever political persuasion), so many responses have been emotional rather than logical So thanks for your insights into the American psyche, very, very useful and informative.

          • Awesome, whimsy!
            So true, and fits with other non-astrologically informed analyses of why so many US people champion conservative polticians when in fact the policies such politicans are offering would hurt their said voters interests. (Free markets, for a start, which have seen US jobs for so many states decline to nothing – and if the US wasn’t totally hypocritical about free markets, subsidising its agricultural producers, while wanting others countries not to do the same, so many more in grain belt states would be hurting).
            In part, I think the problem is that the US got independence fighting a tax, with guns. Now anyone who mentions tax, or guns, is immediately seen by too many as challenging the idea of America as an independent nation. It is indeed a visceral response in defence of one’s roots, rather than a rational response to the realistic options available.
            And Ellie, this bit of this of this response is to you, if you are still listening. Look deeply into the options that were open to Obama when he took over. Why did the republican-dominated congress support those bills that added to the bail out support them? Because they too, had looked at the options, and realised that their preferred tough love approach was actually going to hurt those who elect them even more! A question of the least bad of two very painful options, luv: US jobs were going to go, and political demands from interest groups were going to raise the deficit, either way.
            Same thing applies now, with the ticking clock: it is a question of the least worst option – neither is good, but as far as i can see as an economist, the deep spending cuts that Obama won’t support will hurt people like you – and small business – and the very poor – even more.
            I get why you are scared. It is a horror show. But I think that some of the visceral reactions to you are because you blame him for something that started long before he got there, and that neither party can fix in the short-term.

            Reagan? Do your conservative friends know that the US was the largest net creditor nation when he took office, and the largest net debtor nation by the end of his presidency? Do they know that he added more to Federal Debt than any president prior to him in US history? Worth thinking about, when you think about Obama.
            And – as an aside – your comments about doctors and the FDA actually sounded vaguely like an argument for more government regulation – not less – ie that you were saying “government is letting me down by not doing enough!!”. Ask your friends what conservatives think about government interference and regulation, and see if you can spot the inconsistency there. Hopefully, even if you don’t come back to comment on political posts, you grok the insight.

        • Sorry Whimsy..I didn’t think so either. My comment honestly was based on the comment above. Didn’t think it appropriate to post my response there since there was more helpful details. So I posted here. I don’t see anything wrong with this one.

      • Virgo Ellie, nobody is interested in your opinions or perspective from the US. We’ve heard it. Okaaay! And since when have you become the spokesperson for Mystic?A lot of us have been here for over a decade and wouldn’t dream of being so arrogant. You turn up yesterday and act like you’re running the joint. Just shut up already!

      • Hi Virgo Ellie,

        It is perfectly possible to disagree with somebody else’s thoughts without putting them down. In fact, it is a sign that someone has engaged with you and is thinking that you are interesting enough to comment upon!

        I haven’t disparaged anyone.

        I notice that you have given me a kiss at the end of your comment – thank you. You are, as has been said before, a bit of a sweetie.

        But you don’t have to give me a kiss if you disagree with me. I’ll respect your viewpoint anyway, whether you agree with me or not. I will also defend your right to state your view quite vehemently. Why? Because viewpoints change. Also, because I, as one human being, can only come to the world from my own viewpoint and my own experience. I want to connect and understand the world from other people’s point of view too. Why? Because I understand I have only one, limited viewpoint. The only way to understand and learn about others’ viewpoints (and hence a greater understanding of the world) is to state my view and ask others what they think. Or ask them to clarify what they think. People can get grumpy sometimes, that’s the way of the world. It’s generally not personal or about you (one).

        A personal putdown is when you call people or their family names. Not when you disagree with someone’s thoughts.

        I’ve had a quick look at the comments below and I wish you wouldn’t leave the discussion. I think you have a lot to offer and you wouldn’t be looking at this post unless you felt you had something to learn/comment on? don’t go Virgo Ellie. Stay and argue πŸ™‚ I’m sure me and Prowlncrab would be the first to support you.

  7. Did you want us to stop talking about Margaret Thatcher, Mystic? It’s difficult to guage tone with email. If you would like us to stop talking about her, just ask. Otherwise I will presume that you are doing a Mata Hari and talking in code.

    However. On the subject of the weird religious names of slave ships: this opens a can of worms.

    Topics:

    – How religion has been used to validate slavery, racism, patriarchy, sexism.
    vs
    – How religion has helped many people – point of discussion.

    – Capitalism and Slavery
    – Capitalism, Feudalism and slavery
    – Class, Trade Unions
    – Capitalism, the Industrial Revolution and Britain (and slavery)
    – The slave trade today – sex slavery
    – Britain’s role in the beginning (and ending, see Wilberforce) of the slave trade
    – Traditional religions and beliefs vs. patriarchal religions and beliefs
    – The role of Jesus
    – the role of women and Jesus (his Essene female teachers, the Gnostics, Eleusinian mystery rites).
    – the splitting of the Old and New testaments and the Abrahamic religions requiring strict adherence to a Father god who requires child sacrifice (discuss). ;Testament= testes – truth, (point of discussion)
    – Hinduism and Buddhism. The role of Kunti.
    – The forgotten Gospels, especially those of Peter, Mary and Thomas.
    – Why people need hierarchy and how power corrupts.
    – Feminist theory
    – Athena – her father’s daughter
    – European and African fertility cults
    – How we are all racist to some degree (point of discussion)

    Some books I’ve read which have helped, or not, are, ‘The Serpent and the Goddess’ (advent of Christianity in Ireland), BBC documentary ‘The Hidden Gospels’, ‘Star of the Sea’ (about Irish migration to America on death hole ships). Plus various other stuff which I know other women who have read far more than I have on the subject will (hopefully) post.

    • “How religion has been used to validate slavery, racism, patriarchy, sexism vs how religion has helped many people – point of discussion.”

      Well … since you asked …

      It depends upon which religion you are talking about. Most indigenous religions act as a means of explaining a. why people are here b. carries, disseminates and protects the moral underpinnings of a particular culture in order to produce social cohesion.

      If you are talking about Western Christianity, originally Europe was filled with multiple indigenous cults and regional belief systems that were eventually consumed by successive occupations particularly the Roman Empire which legalised Christianity in the 4th century, with Catholicism becoming the state religion some time after.

      During the early medieval era, Catholicism (after the collapse of the Roman Empire), spread to western Europe by conversional missionaries who probably sensed the demise of their religion along with their empire. The consolidation of the major powers of western Europe under one religion (Catholicism) and a cohesive central ruling class, laid the foundation for what soon was to become the power house of Western Europe. The motivation for doing this was just as much about creating a “safety in numbers” approach against the threat of an encroaching Islam which was prone to rather violent takeover and conversion of Christian dominated areas. With it’s new found power and wealth, Western Europe under the banner of the Catholic church, led the first of a series of holy crusades against Islam.

      The more humanitarian aspects of christianity only came about through the reformation and the creation of the protestant religion which was far less fire and brimstone, and proposed a much more kindly face of god and jesus.

      Religiously endorsed oppression of minorities, homosexuals, women etc really was an indication of the centrally held beliefs of that culture at that time – mainly propogated by a literate upper class to control an illiterate and ignorant lower and peasant class.

      Challanges to those beliefs occured during the enlightenment or Age of Reason (around the Renaissance) when new discoveries in science and so forth generated new ideas about our evolution and undermined some of the Bible’s legitimacy. Ironically, it was the stability created by a one church/one rule heirarchy in western Europe that created the grounds for the enlightenment in the first place.

      My take anyways πŸ˜€

      Questions? πŸ˜‰

      • I believe the Thirty Years’ War and certain treaties (Treaty of Westphalia and others) ~mid-1500s also brought about strong limits to the powers of the Church across Europe, which were at the time (as you mentioned) vast and untrammelled.

        • re the church in that era it is my understanding that the nobility were clamping down on the churches – I’m referring to specifically to France – because they were exploiting the fact they were exempt from taxes and were able to charge their congregations to run businesses on the grounds of church lands. The cathedrals were extending the length of the traditional seasonal fairs and festivities when people would gather and were allowing the purveyors of beer and other alcohol and various wares made by the members of the guilds to set up shop all year round. Anything that was under a church awning was a $ earner for the church and they didn’t have to pay the nobility a cent.

      • Wow, thanks Prowlin’. and Ha ! to Whimsey! You’ve really got me thinking.. Prowlin- thanks.

        I’ve got a few questions and comments –

        Do you think that there were only patriarchal religions around 2000 years’ ago? If not (and I think not), why haven’t we heard more about the matrifocal indigenous religions of, say, the Navajo or Celts, or the indigenous Goddesses of the area i.e. Israel.

        Why are the old testament and new testament so completely different in their understanding of god? I know that the Nicene gathering looked at Marcius’ (?spelling) proposition that there were actually two gods, one of the old testament, and one of the new, and that his belief that Judaism (old testament) should be eradicated from the Christian gospels was unwelcome. The people in power in the Church at the time though that it was dangerous for the nascent christian faith to be separated from the already established Jewish faith.
        So, then only gospels selected at Nicea were to be linked with the Christian faith, and everything else was heresy, including the gospels of Peter and Mary.

        Also, I understand that women were quite central to christianity e.g. Gnosticism, Mary.

        The Pope apologised for the depiction of Mary Magdelene as a prostitute as untrue. Why denigrate Mary? Why lie?

        How long after Christ died were the gospels written? I understand that Mark was written 50 years after Jesus’ death, which makes it the earliest, but if they were simple fishermen, could they write? I understand that no mention was made of Jesus until 100 years after his death in Roman, Egyptian or anything else, chronicles.

        There was no word for homosexual until 1700s (so I’ve read). I’ve looked at the bit about Sodom and Gomorrah – it’s about a rabid group of men coming to Lot’s house and demanding that Lot give up two Christians for them to gang rape. Lot says: take my two virgin daughters instead. Nice.

        To link this in to Mystic’s original post about slave ships being named after biblical events – I remember being a young girl and reading my Grandad’s ‘History of the British Empire’ which clearly stated that there were 5 races – the Whites had a special edict under God to protect and ‘look after’ the others. I don’t know how looking after = slavery, but it also mentioned the suffragette who jumped under the King’s horse at the Derby to protest about equal votes. Silly woman, she should have stayed at home looking after her husband, as it says in the bible: So – we’ve got the whole God- Pope – Kings (divine right of Kings) – Nobility – Classes Races etc etc with women being subservient to men and non-white races being treated as children. Actually you would treat children much, much better. They quote the bible e.g. ‘A slave shall obey his master’ (Timothy), and all the rest about disobedient children, women etc. etc.

        In Britain, Henry VIII stuffed up the Pope because he wanted a younger bit of stuff, and was also probably mad, but Protestantism still (well here in Church of England) says women can’t be vicars and we can bless boats but not same sex marriages. There are also (I think) 27 seats in the House of Lords reserved for C of E bishops.. Why? Unelected!

        I have a good few friends who are – Mormon, Catholic, an Anglican Chaplain, a R.C. nun.
        I understand that people want to be connected to a sense of their own soul, mystery and the sublime, but to deliberately put the shackles on your own thinking is (nearly) beyond me.

        I do, by the way, believe in Soul. I think the way religion has been used is shameful.

        Do you think, Prowlin’, considering Moslems ruled Spain for nigh on 600 years, and co-existed peacefully with Christians, that there will be another Renaissance period? Especially with the Internet.

        BTW effing interesting post – thank you for your comments and has really got me thinking.

    • This is a brilliant list, Min. We could discuss until someone shuts down the internet. πŸ˜‰

      Prowlin’s lead the charge, I see.

      • Ah Whimsy! Yes, let’s shut down the internet. Prowlin is doing a good job. Slavery and the Bible is a hornet’s net of interest.

  8. Just to change the subject a bit:

    “Christ the Redeemer, Blessed, John Evangelist, The Lord Our Savior, Trinity.”
    The names of churches on your block? Nope. Just the names of slave ships that made over 40,000 trips back and forth across the Atlantic during the Trans Atlantic slave trade. The LARGEST FORCED MIGRATION IN HUMAN HISTORY.

    (via howtobeterrell)

  9. I find Maggie’s retro lilith in detriment in cancer in the 8th interesting. And the jupiter in capricorn in the 2nd house. Interesting chart. I wonder what myers brigg she was.

    • also astro theme says she was a master number numerologically – 22. Considering her achievements objectively, she was working her own flavour of awesome to the nth degree. Not my kind of awesome, but awesome nonetheless.

  10. Really, why would anyone not expect things to go ballistic when Pluto is involved? I well remember similar eruptions in another long-lasting post when I was still living in Australia about Pluto which I’m not going to name as I went into major trolling mode on that one. But you do have to say, putting things into perspective, that Pluto can certainly fire us all up. Dear old Pluto :p

  11. Just 3 points:

    1. Following from the social consequences left in the legacy of Baroness Thatcher, it is interesting to note that in her later years, she was in the throes of Alzheimer’s.
    From a mystical/energetic point of view – people who develop Alzheimer’s are served this path, because their spirit needs to have insight into the dissociative suffering/disorder of the collective consciousness.
    For among the central features of Alzheimer’s are the strangeness of its thought patterns and the sudden changeability of the individuals focus. Alzheimer’s serves the purpose of dismantling the rational element of functioning in order that the emotional and imaginative elements be given freer reign. Where mental functioning may have been a priority before, now the functioning of a child begins to appear. Where judgment and critical analysis may have been valued heavily, now innocence begins to be given space and room in which to breathe. You can draw parallels yourself with the political personality of Baroness Thatcher and her approach to criticism, conservative policy, the lack of support given to social consciousness (this would represent her lack of innocence) and the journey she would have had to endure in her own personal turmoil.
    I guess what i am trying to sum up is that for all the harshness she presented upon the public, life made her endure the confusion and harshness further in her confusing and lonely battle with Alzheimer’s.

    2. For the readers familiar with Gina Rinehart – (a mining magnate/the heiress of Hancock Prospecting) she too seems to be going down a similar path/legacy as Baroness Thatcher. Certainly, only time shall tell.

    3. The passing of Baroness Thatcher seems suspect in that only recently has the Jimmy Saville saga come to light. It may be in the interest of certain people to ‘kill off’ notaries of that era and deal with hidden evidence in their own way, so that the major public shall not become privy to the truth.

    yes, that is all folks! Aideu.

        • M. Miu, I think the Alzheimers connection is fascinating. Re the innocence bit, though, there is possibly a twin, and equally valid explanation. If we are not just puppets of the universe, and have any subconscious choice in our paths – be it a choice driven by a mind in touch with its higher self, or not – it could also in part represent not just the universe (in league with our subconcious selves) making us face the non-rational and our own vulnerability, but also an unconscious retreat from memories and the new insight (and fear of having been wrong) that time has cast on our former certainties and actions. Who says all karma comes in this lifetime?

          The question I really want to ask though, is this: why do you suspect her death is suspect?

          And Ellie – linking this to other posts about intellectual rigour and reasoning and evidence – why do you go even further and say you BELIEVE her death may be suspect given relationship to Saville?

          You mention “killing off” here, M. Miu, so I assume you are talking murder, not suicide. Conspiracy theories often have a basis in fact – then again, sometimes they don’t. BUT the first thing to examine very closely is this: whose interests might actually be served by killing her, given the unique circumstances of her health at the time of her death?

          “Certain people” would only have taken that step if she might have forced to give oral evidence that implicated him or herself, surely? But would a top QC even bother calling someone who’d had many strokes who had very advanced Alzheimers/ anyway, knowing that a top defence QC would make short work of ensuring that any evidence she gave was inadmissable?

          The parts of Thatcher/Saville correspondence that have NOT been made public (ie bits that have been censored from what has been publicly released) CAN be accessible to legal inquiries. If someone nicked anything incriminating from her private papers to protect her, same thing applies: she would not be a reliable witness, and might not remember.

          It is not her, but people like her personal secretary, and No 10 private secretary, to whom she spoke about related matters that she was not prepared to put in writing, who would be most likely to be called to provide evidence not already available to legal teams. So if any such people suddenly turned up dead, ok – I’d be wondering.

          But why kill her? It wouldn’t help the conservative party, or M15, or bloody anyone, since any fallout will come out, with or without her being alive.

          Even if one was a friend of Thatcher, and wished to euthanise her to spare her shame about something that may or may not be about to come out re Saville or anything, would such a friend have take the legal risk of being found out, given that she has been out of touch with reality for almost a decade anyway?

    • That’s interesting, because Reagan suffered from Alzheimer’s acutely as well. Apparently he spent his last days taking leaves out of his swimming pool, and Nancy told the Gardner to keep throwing them in there so that he felt he had something meaningful to do.

      I don’t believe in hell per se because I believe we pay for our actions in this life, either by causing pain and suffering to ourselves or to others, or in the legacy we leave our children and families. We are already judged by our actions, heaven and hell are just constructs for people who wish to avoid responsibility for their actions in this life.

      There was once a Buddhist monk on a journey in ancient Japan. On his way he met a samurai, who leapt onto the path and confronted him, sword drawn.
      “Teach me about heaven and hell” he screamed at the monk.
      “Put down the sword and I will talk to you” said the monk. But the samurai yelled:
      “Teach me about heaven and hell or I will kill you”.
      The monk looked the samurai in the eye and, touching the sword he said “you are in hell at this very moment”.
      The samurai, realizing what he had been about to do, lowered his sword and began to cry.
      ” and now you are in heaven” said the monk.

      • Seabird: This is great – it illustrates the point beautifully. Also, you are correct in drawing parallels with Mr. Reagan – after all, as you can see from this site, many people have memories of his legacy and his alliance with Baroness Thatcher.
        It could also be said that these political leaders are, oftentimes, puppet faces for other machinations that are at work. The personal wrangling within their own government administrations would take a toll on individuals who appear to be robust on the outside, but in truth are empty inside. (see above). Hence, the development of Alzheimer’s etc. The spirit was ‘sickly’ to begin with… only certain people are attracted to the manipulations of modern day politics, and there is something within their spirit which is unaligned or empty.
        This discussion could go on, and on, but thank you for contributing!
        Mr. M.

        • Indeed. I’ve been thinking about the possible karmic connections between MT and QE1.

          From a credible source, I’ve recently been told that John Dee created a spiritual creature, an aggregor, to protect QE1. On the physical plane, this creature manifested as the first join-stock company, the first corporation — The East India Co. Dee knew his work (any magic does) might have unintended negative consequences. It did.

          • Please elucidate on your thoughts on these connections?! I am not quite getting it, thank you. Fascinating.

            Is it quite common that people with great brains end up with alzheimers? It seems a natural balance, as you suggest, that the spirit needs to emerge after the brain has caged it’s needs. It doesn’t have to happen in this lifetime but it can? I guess there is personal quality to have these things are balanced karmically and perhaps the chakras can also get unbalanced, clogged in unused areas.

            From a little personal & general observation I see often great people are corrupted the more famous they grow.
            There are energies that take a strong interest in the power. The stakes rise and a thought in the wrong direction is enough to have an impact as there is so much energy being directed at them.

            • Hmmm, interesting A, I very much agree with you.

              I wonder if it also has something to do with the more powerful people become in terms of worldly power, the more the Egoic Body literally takes over the mind. And this of course results in an interest in power for its own sake and a need to constantly judge others. ie. I’m better than / less than; I will exert my power over you / or give my power away to you.

              And the spirit is separate to the ego, and separate to the mind. So there is nothing else to do but for the spirit to take over the entirety of the Being by literally shutting the mind down because it has become so corrupted by the ego.

              • The question becomes when there are so many interested spirits at work, who is ruling the roost. What happens when the mental abilities evaporate? Often people with mental illness are vehicles for disembodied energies, their higher self unable to activate their egoic mind which is quivering in a tiny corner of their aura.

            • Pardon my ignorance but MT and QE1 to John Dee means?
              And RE the aggregor protecting QE1 manifesting as the East India Co. – what was Dee’s original intention versus the unintended negative activity?
              Thank you!
              I have more questions about aggregors and organisations.
              Remember I think here that someone mentioned the British began concentration camps in SA, plus the concentration camps of the Nazi’s did the bulk of their killings on days of occult ritual sacrifice.
              So I think the energy created by these sacrifices invite down certain energy frequencies that interact with the power mongerers.
              The aggregor being materialised on the physical plane poses lots of interesting (& unfortunate) questions and possibilities.
              Any links you can share?

              • I’m just swirling this idea around in my head. Don’t have a specific theory yet regarding Thatcher and Queen Elizabeth I — apart from the obviousness of their gender and the challenge of leading a nation as women.

                If you’re looking for more re Dee’s project, try this book: Liber 118 U.S. 394: The Battle Of Oakland.

                I have not read it but will soon. It’s a fictionalization (cough cough) of the current news.

                (The author is interesting. Much more than his public bio.)

                You might investigate “Corporate Metabolism” too.

                If I remember correctly from my own writing (ha!), the East India Co was created during a Pluto Capricorn cycle, a December 31st birthday, making it very very Cappy.

                Hope this helps, Andi.

                • Oh. Dee’s intention was to protect the reign of Elizabeth, and by extension, bar Roman Catholic interference with England. Because of this, I suspect he felt he was doing The Right Thing against the ungodly papists. πŸ˜‰

                  He created something, the only thing he could imagine I suppose, capable of rivaling the power, wealth and influence of Rome.

                  The unintended consequences of unchecked corporate-style capitalism is self evident today. The US has given personhood status to the corporate body, which is a funny way of unmasking the truth. Ha! Just realised that…

                  • You may also be interested in the current exhibition in Texas by Jesse Bransford. I know someoneworking with this MOST interesting piece.

                    Enjoy!

                  • That’s great!
                    Thank you Whimsy, good work here!!
                    Love the connection you make in the last sentence.. πŸ˜‰

          • The East India Co. (British) was one of the more notable elite controlled trading companies. People connected to the Br. East India Co. were responsible for the creation of the Fabian Society. These trading companies tie in with the occult world’s leadership and the formation of drug cartels during the age of discovery.
            In 1815 they began to operate an opium smuggling operation. The British elite got involved in shipping opium. The elite families got monopolies on the opium trade. The British empire’s military might and political clout was used to force China to allow the opium trade.
            When occult forces are being used for power – the energetic vibrations are renewed in a manner, often than not, that borders on ‘foul-play’ and dark energy practices.
            Since official documents are never revealed to the public at large, occult practices/rituals can take place under the ‘disguise’ of war, conflict and unprecedented forceful conduct on sovereign states. Readers here have acknowledged that Baroness Thatchers’ foreign policy with Africa, Argentina and the Middle East was repeatedly unrestrained and undesirable.
            You can confidently be assured that many of the polices were used to elucidate occult energy (war makes a brilliant cause for human sacrifice!).
            As you have all rightly pointed out, the higher energy and potential (which is within every individual) becomes squandered if, by choice of their free will, they elect to subject their spirit to negative forces and/or engage in them.
            It is for this reason that the mind, reason and facility shuts down. What those seeking power through unconscious means have yet to contain or control is: the energy of the ‘mystery’ – aka the energy of life.
            With the onset of the ‘shift in consciousness’ era, the energy patterns will shift accordingly as more people align with their higher selves – so too does the end, death and collapse of these people – and their once hidden structures become apparent.
            Our era now is definitely an interesting era to be alive in…however, it is imperative that as a collective, we all seek to vibrate on our higher consciousness and truth. This is the responsibility we have – otherwise the (unwanted) cycle of control will continue for generations to come.
            Best regards,

            • Thank you. I’m glad you returned and expanded on this story. I am fascinated (but not surprised) at the underlying energetic structures that are being exposed in this era.

              And I take your encouragement to heart. These is not hopeful yearnings for frothy New Age Nirvana, but a serious statement about a future we are creating now.

  12. People – i actually posted on Thatcher objectively and in the spirit of looking at the quite notable astro of a public figure who had just passed – this site is a democracy and people are perfectly entitled to express their opinion provided it does degenerate into personal abuse.

    Personally, she lost me at Pinochet but i am perfectly happy for others to say that they support her for whatever reason. I think it’s good to be able to entertain opinions contrary to your own.

    I – for example – am Vegan but i regularly have discussions with the Paleo peeps i know about books like The China Study versus the Primal Blueprint.

    • oops mystc, had to smile at the slip: ‘ people are perfectly entitled to express their opinion provided it does degenerate into personal abuse.’ LOL

    • well, I have enjoyed this post immensely !!! Most interesting and awesome in a long while.

      It’s great to have a space to share opinions with like-minded souls, as mainstream media has typically been biased and infuriating.

      So thanks Mystic, for allowing us to voice our thoughts. πŸ™‚

      • Yes hasn’t it? That’s what happens when Murdoch owns all the rags and insists on re-writing history.

        The Guardian has thousands of comments by people on some of their articles on her. One Belgium guy said that during the 80s people there collected food / clothes / toys for the miners as they had nothing and were starving. When the container got to England Maggie had the police destroy it all.

    • Personally I thank you for this post. It’s been very informative to find out how she’s affected other people besides my own…,particularly those within her own borders

      • It’s a pleasure!
        Yes she repressed her own people as well. Basically anyone poor, she stood on in order to make the rich richer. She destroyed industry in Britain so that they could become a nation founded on bankers and finance. … !

        • Devil’s advocate.. but is it possible without her cruel measures Britain would have been down the economic drain, an English speaking Albania of sorts by now?

          • Yes point taken. You may well be right. It’s hard to say, isn’t it? I know that many see that her tough love was what the country desperately needed, and that it in fact saved them.
            But to me the English have always seemed resourceful and so incredibly, for want of a better word, ‘cultured’, that it is hard to imagine them having slipped so far down the drain that they would have become a total non-entity as you suggest.
            But perhaps that is naive of me. It’s just that sometimes the spectre of failed nation states and the fear of becoming that becomes a ploy to make an electorate go along with you. Certainly here in Australia John Howard’s constant harping on about the economy made the electorate believe that if we didn’t choose his policies everything would fall apart at the seams.

            • I think it is very hard to see the full picture, with one stroke of a pen many may go hungry or have to relocate, even die. But there then there are the long term problems that if not met perhaps more suffering is the result.
              I don’t know, but being a leader seems really darned if you do darned if you don’t.
              I don’t like Thatcher, but I am willing to bet there are decisions that were going to look bad no matter which way they went.

    • Scorp – she polarised people, she’s doing it still. Scorpio rising so Pluto/Mars was the chart ruler. Saturn in Scorpio in the first house. Pluto square sun&mars and opposite Jupiter. Have a look at the Oxford Astrologer’s recent post for her. You can look up all of these aspects and planets in signs by googling. Oxford Astrologer says it as if a long hard winter has finally broken, and now the rain has come.. make of that what you will. A lot of people in the UK feel that Mrs Thatcher ruined their families, community and ultimately the country (including me). The feeling’s that strong, still.. because the legacy of Mrs Thatcher was that she de-regulated the banks, let loose a wild individualism and let the weak/poor/young/old suffer needlessly. So we are reaping what she sowed now – What we’re really upset about, it that our community and society has sold itself down the river for the sake of a few shares. What we’re really upset about is letting the kids down – we should have protested more, we could have done more. (I’m 47, by the way). So – it’s big business (Scorp/Pluto/Mars) + the Saturn in the first house pushing it all through, to an intensely personal, bullying end point (Moon) where it affects community and family.
      Hope that helps!

    • Oh well for god sakes what is wrong with you? Nobody is forcing you to read anything – there are plenty of other less impassioned threads on the go that you can read instead of this one.

      I personally find it really offensive that people like you waft into the middle of a conversation that others obviously feel quite strongly about and then try to muzzle the discussion with your passive aggressive whinging because it’s all about your and your stifling sensitivities.

      • And I am just as entitled to my opinion. And as for muzzling? It’s past 200 posts, I’m just saying what I think, back off!

        • I totally agree prowlncrab. This site posts something interesting and topical about a woman who was incredibly divisive (as in supported Pinochet, was pro apartheid and anti Mandela, was pro Pol Pot and supported him in the UN for decades, and on and on and on) all the flakes waft on about not wanting to read negative comments and how terrible people’s comments are. Wake up!!! We can’t all walk through life only concerned about whether some new guy’s astro is compatible with yours. Unbelievable.
          I don’t even really see any so-called ‘personal attacks’. Just an irritation that some people are so completely ignorant outside of anything in their little world.

          • Scorpcat, you are just as valuable here as anyone else. It’s just that we can’t all be the same or feel the same. A lot of us feel very strongly about this topic for lots of different reasons.
            Let others talk about their feelings re this person bad or good – and WHY! You don’t have to engage if it disturbs you, but if you are interested in debate I bet there are people here online willing to talk about the pro’s and con’s with interest.

          • Just being very Libran for a moment and changing the subject, but does MT have a heavily congested via combusta?

              • she’s not talking to you she’s talking to the person the line on the left hand side links to – it is a broken line because she commented after you and was responding to the same person you attached your comment to.

                And yes, sun mercury and saturn are between 15Β° Libra and Scorpio. I was also interested in the placement of lilith in detriment in cancer in the 8th which is ruled by mars and pluto, while scorpio is her ascendant with saturn there – so it’s quite a toxic and hard-line manifesting of the energy to do with taxes and other people’s money as well as being linked to maternal power issues. Fascinating. Evil.

                • Brilliant…..thanks for that interpretation. I’m an astro novice but
                  am genuinely interested in what produced such a steely unyielding character who ENJOYED being hated.

                  • Thanks PinC….always like your comments…shootingfrom the hip.

                  • re the enjoying being hated, your comment made me think – her ascendant is in the middle of the fiery road – sometimes I find it’s the lateral or quirky aspects of a person who has a distinct natal chart that give the depth necessary to interpret the nuances of of their way of expressing the chart. Your pointing out via combusta being an intrinsic part of Thatcher’s persona seems particularly poignant. So thumbs up to the novice.

  13. Scorpcat – have another look at Margaret Thatcher’s chart. Then look at the descriptions and feelings of how the people directly living under her influence experienced it. It’s visceral, and emotional, but, if you want to live up to your Scorpy name and nature, dig and you’ll learn about astrology and how it affects living, breathing human beings and nations. This woman wasn’t a simple Libran, nor a Libra Sun/Leo Moon, nor a 12th house sun. It’s all there if you want to find it, described by Mystic if you want to look up the ruling planets and squares – depressing though it may be.

  14. Mystic, you know I love you but the retarded comments on this blog are depressing. I subscribe to read interesting commentary about the world I live in and how it relates to astrology – not whiney complaining like this.

    Oh and whilst I’m at it let’s get rid of all the posts that I don’t like because hey this is MY personal reading space and everything should be geared around my interests and what I consider acceptable.

      • Some of us really love a good political dissection and we are overjoyed to be having one here. You could come back another day if you are unhappy, and we can go back to discussing the dick size of various star signs (which I enjoy as well)

          • No, I do get it, I know Prowln well enough to know exacrly what she means. (plus shes a fairly plain speaker!) that should’ve been directed to the original poster, whom Prowln was quoting. My reply should belong to the thread above.

  15. Mystic, you know I love you but the hateful comments on this blog are depressing. I subscribe to learn about astrology not to read this.

  16. VIRGO ELLIE, you are a true sweetie, really, & i’m sorry for being facetious which is an evil trait of mine. I am from the original Mousers era & Annette was not my fave but did give me my love of rodents which i have to this day πŸ™‚
    Many of my friends from the 70’s were contentious objectors to the Vietnam War, some had to hide from conscription. That war also resulted in heroin being introduced to mainstream population, devastating, so no, the statement t-shirt is loooong gone.
    Politics is not my area of interest, but realise due to Thatcher & our PM, Julia Gillard, Oz & UK will not have another female leader any time soon, if ever, unfortunately.
    x

    • Note the astro. It’s not just fancy cocktail conversation. It’s serious business.

      So I have my doubts about abundant civility. But it could happen.

      Maybe.

      • Yup, Thatcher continues to polarise even after death. I don’t agree we are insulting each other either. Disagreeing with another person’s opinion is not insulting (although it might feel like it).

        • I’m not insulting anyone. But I also won’t hold my tongue with people whom I think are so uninformed that is practically amounts to stupidity. I can argue with a good argument. Stupidity I simply will call out.

          • β€œMEN ARE DISTURBED NOT BY THINGS THAT HAPPEN
            BUT BY THEIR OPINION OF THE THINGS THAT HAPPEN”
            Epictetus

  17. On the face off it, Leo isn’t a great sign for the Moon to be in – receptions aside, the Moon has no dignity here. However what makes the difference is firstly that it’s close to the MC and secondly that it’s conjunct Regulus, the Royal Star. So in many respects it was Regulus that pushed her to the heights. One should also remember that Winston Churchill had the Moon on Regulus. At the same time the Saturn rising was helpful – it gave her the toughness and inflexibility to be successful.

    As for her death, I hated her when she was in office, and I believe that she did nothing but harm to the UK. However I think it’s in bad taste to celebrate her death. She was just another bad Prime Minister, of which Britain has had too many.

    If you’re interested, I wrote an article on my blog about Margaret Thatcher:

  18. She still gets praise for the Falklands War where Argentina “invaded” the islands. What is not mentioned is that shortly before that happened, Britain expanded the territorial waters of the islands to (don’t remember, this is off shonky memory here) but many hundreds of kilometres – ie. much bigger than the land area of the islands themselves. Thus gaining Britain a very large fishing area and I believe also the potential for mining some oil.

    now if that ain’t expansionism, I don’t know what is. Argentina eventually reacted with the Falklands invasion. But have any of you ever heard the Argentinian side of the story?

  19. Anonymous and Virgo Ellie – those commenting here adversely on Thatcher aren’t “an embarrassment to Mystic”, they are being absolutely honest and good on them. I find the idea that one should suddenly sanctify someone who’s dead complete hypocrisy when in their life they committed evil, wicked acts which Thatcher did – destroying communities, lives, families, and all for greed and her own ambition. Nor can I say anything good about someone who started a war to boost her poll ratings and ordered the sinking of the Belgrano with the loss of hundreds of young lives when the battleship in question was sailing away from the no-entry zone. Thatcher also supposed the ghastly Pinochet in Chile and opposed the sports boycott of apartheid Africa which did so much to bring an end to the vile system of apartheid. To earn respect in death, you need to act with respect for others in life, and when you have lead a life totally devoid of compassion and respect for ordinary folk, you can’t expect people to suddenly stay quiet after years of pent-up anger at this miserable woman’s actions. I also saw that the Tory press which complains about people celebrating Thatcher’s death is the same press which was happy to post pictures of Saddam Hussein with a noose over his head or gloat about Osama bin Laden’s death. Different when it’s one of theirs, and utter, utter hypocrisy.

    • Oops, forgot to post name, The Crazy Crone, formerly Aphrodite Rising. I don’t post anonymously, quite happy to associate my name with the above post about Thatcher and to say I did a happy dance when I heard of her death. Next stop Dick Cheney.

      • I agree with you Crazy Crone.. honestly I see your point on your first comment. What I disagree with are the direct attacks towards someonewho is compassionate about others and how they feel about their life and use astrology to understand it better and post an opinion. Then they try and belittle that person because of their opinion. There are people here that will attack you to try and make you feel bad (a.k.a. bullying) which is a sign of insecurity. It could be a bad life situation and I understand that but not here at the expense of Mystic. We are all in the same boat so accusing others of things that are rightfully your own is uncalled for.

        And Crazy Crone.. are you honestly wishing death for Dick Cheney.. That is so wrong.

        • PS: I think O-Blame-Us is the worst US president ever but I would never wish him dead… just get out of that seat. He is ruining lives like I am learning about Thatcher.

          • What’s your evidence for that, VE? Really?

            Are you talking about the lives ruined by the banking and mortgage crises? Surely not.

                • Corporations without concience are a crime against humanity in the main Ellie. Conservative governments only really exist nowdays to protect them. Cute paternal jocular Presidents are a sick Plutonic dream from last century on said:

                  Corporations without concience are a crime against humanity in the main Ellie. Conservative governments only really exist nowdays to protect them.
                  Things are’a changing rather quickly these days tho,.. thank the lordy πŸ™‚

                  • Actually, I think you’ve got it backwards: governments exist at the pleasure of corporations. Even “liberal” governments are enthralled, sadly.

                  • You are correct and so is Whimsy.. I work closely with FDA and the government needs corporations to keep the economy going. So if the product doesn’t have evidence of hurting people but it is selling the government wants it.

              • Who is “everyone”?
                Who lives in hospitals?

                Commenters with strong opinions about Thatcher have offered up specific policy and known history to support their feelings about her.

                Can you point to specific instances and policy for your position? You’re offering generalizations and vague images. I’m sure anyone outside the US would be happy to know details, if you’ve got something substantial.

                • There are no reports or statistics .. the government will not allow it. If you pay attention everyone is being diagnosed with a supposed disease without concrete evidence. So people are panicking and take the treatment therapies and most of them are dying. I have been involved with doctor’s for over 35 years because of my own life threatening disease. Since 2009 I have been afraid of doctor’s. After my uncle died from chemo I noticed 2 things (1) doctor’s don’t know if you have the condition and (2) they don’t know if you will survive after their recommendations.. they are testing it on you to see. This is again an opinion based on personal experience. Once you are diagnosed with a disease they suck you in and try to convince of things. I don’t know how long I will be here.. it is up to God but I am going to live my life the best way I can, fight for what is right and enjoy my love for people who have changed my life. If this bothers you…. ummmm.. I feel sorry for you!

                  • I’m sorry you have to work closely with the FDA, an organization which, on the whole has become an agent for pharmacutical interests.

                  • You won’t hear disagreement from me about the state of conventional medicine and the over-prescribing of drugs. I think this can be an area of mutual agreement between some liberal and conservative thinkers.

                    So I’m more than aware of these problems. And I’m sure that you’ve drawn the conclusion that UniversalHealth Care = more Bad Medicine. But that’s not the point I was trying to make.

                    The concrete examples I wanted were specific policies of the Obama Administration have implemented. Or legislation passed by Congress. People here have written about the Poll Tax and the Falkland Islands and Pinochet as specific instancesthat support their loathing of Thatcher and her policies. These are verifiable.
                    Your grievances are based on unverifiable data and gross generalization (“everyone is being diagnosed with a supposed disease” which the government won’t allow records of).
                    You want to be taken seriously, I know. Unfortunately, these statements make flimsy logic. And the implications of secrecy combined with “everyone” statements sound like paranoia.

                    I don’t doubt that pharmaceuticals would like us all to use their products;it’s a way of expanding their market share and supporting their profits. The WHOLE RAISON D’ETRE of corporations is to maximize profit while minimizing risk. It’s a completely Amoral creature, the corporation. You are right to be suspicious of it.

                    The philosophy of free-market economics, embraced by most modern conservatives, encourages this behavior.May the best man win. Or rather, may the best funded man win.
                    In this atmosphere (one that Reagan and Thatcher did their utmost to secure), the man with the most gold makes the rules. (A favorite saying of my Taurus step-father who idolized Rush Limbaugh.) Come tax day, you may think this Man is the guv’ment.But I assure you, that Man is (barely) regulatedmulti-national corporations. The gold is on their side. (Just ask GoldmanSachs. πŸ™‚ They’ll tell you allllll about it.)

                    The corporations have the gold. They make the rules. That’s not paranoia,that’s the logical outcome of free-market capitalism.

                    But I digress.

                    It seems to me that your fear of government is really a fear of corporatecontrol of government, so you fear greater government influencein your life –like The UniversalHealth Care Act. Which came about as an attempt to check the callous and cruel behavior of corporatized medicine. Which brings us full circle to Thatcher and Reagan, the love parents of modern free-market medicine.

                    Did your idols create your monster?

        • Virgo Ellie – I’m not commenting on other people and I don’t like the way some people have been attacked in this blog. And no, I’m not wishing death for Dick Cheney, don’t have to, at some point he’ll pop his clogs. But I’m not going to be hypocritical and say nothing, I will say the same as I said about Thatcher: good riddance to very bad rubbish. He was responsible for the deaths of thousands of Iraqis and hundreds of US soldiers for an illegal war to grab Iraq’s oil and all to boost the profits of the corporation he’s involved in, Halliburton. And yes, I’d dance on his grave if I had half a chance.

  20. Just have to add what an Icelandic girlfriend said when she visited me during the Thatcher years.
    “She is a bad mother”
    My friend was referring both to her as a mother of a nation and – I think – her overt preference for her son over her daughter.
    So many of the ills we have in the UK were down to the ideology of greed fostered by Margaret Thatcher.

  21. How relevant re julia gillard misogyny, it still goes on regardless of the ceilings women break, like theres always another ceiling that cannot be broken.
    I am surprised by some of the venom some people still express like they are stuck, blaming someone else, how long ago was it? god move on.

    • The PM is there because they are willing to tow the line of the big miners/pharma/blah blah war mongerers.
      Female/Male or Black/White it makes no difference.
      All these female PM’s and Black prezziedents are an allowed distraction from the real issues.

  22. I was a teenager living in the UK during some of the Thatcher years: the Falklands, Greenham Common, CND etc. I won’t go on about the politics except to say I grew up in the north of England so I know first hand how those policies destroyed people. But creatively it was an amazing time to be in England. Musicians, theatre, there was so much going on, real creative resistance. That part of it was exhilarating to be around.

    • It was dirty, exhilarating, intense, high stakes ( spesh for this middle class Aussie) gritty, dark dark dark with gem like summer days with no heat in them but a longevity to die for….gigs at the Hammersmith, drugs galore, poverty i had never seen in white society, Aussie bands doing it hard in east end squats and Finsbury Park etc etc – and so very very real – thanks for the memories Iron Lady – unlike Annette F whom my mother denounced as ‘American sentimentality’ ( pax VE – bought up in anti-American household ie Canadian)

    • V. true Chrysalis….theatre brilliant then, and agree totally with Q below…you’ve nailed it. Electric times…

      • One of the positive things about the Thatcher years is how many intelligent and interesting English people migrated to Australia (well, good for Australia) – quite a few of my uni professors

  23. Perhaps the best thing that happened during her time in government was that it inspired some great music.

    I’ve been reading over a few things about her death and I saw “The Iron Lady” recently and what has occurred to me is that the woman didn’t seem to have the slightest scintilla of compassion – as in it was completely absent from her personality. In my view, that is a character flaw that no amount of personality strengths can compensate for.

    She isn’t getting a state funeral apparently, which comes as a surprise as I thought that was kind of automatic for a former PM.

    I remember hearing about the Poll tax and my sister explaining it to me. It seemed unfair. Then years later, someone else explained it in even more basic terms: the Poll tax was based on the electoral rolls, so if you didn’t want to pay it, or more to the point couldn’t afford it, it could be avoided by not enrolling to vote. And who would be the most likely to want to avoid it? The lower classes. And who do they tend to vote for? Labour.

    • Agreed re the music was thinking the same tonight – hugely creative millieu during the late 70’s through. Takes real backbone to make art/ music there – and some of that comes from the war tradition as per Terence Davis trilogy shows music as core to working class culture.

      • I’m with you re the Music Quintile, Matt Johnson from The The also produced a cracker of a tune with Heartland. Whenever there is great art from greed and power, these words come to mind.

        β€œIn Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace – and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.”

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Man

        • Isn’t life a mysterious paradox.. If there weren’t bad or difficult things happening in the world, where would all the great art, poetry & music come from, the people uniting in protest, new political movements etc et al.. It seems we need all the opposites to create some kind of balanced world.. Or we need to get a little out of balance at certain times in life.. In order to make life more interesting.. Yes, Ok back to Shakespeare etc et al…

          • All the world’s a stage,
            And all the men and women merely players:

            They have their exits and their entrances;

            And each in his or her time plays many parts..

            Leading us all to the deep mystery of Life. And, the. “Fate & Destiny” & “the Soul”…. Of which astrology, numerology etc give us much insight into, but never into total or absolute knowing of all things…

            ‘As You Like It’ – Shakespeare.

    • I know.. I am shocked. Most of the people commenting here are an embarrassment to Mystic. I am disappointed in myself for thinking I could get sound support from some of these bloggers. I have a few chosen mentors here that have been logical and supportive. πŸ™

    • As much as I loathed her and the culture of greed she encouraged, I find it terribly sad that she died alone, her children weren’t present and still haven’t appeared………press trying to keep that quiet.

      • Agreed DLibScorp – of course on one level EVERYONE’S death is sad.

        Ellie and Anon and S this is doubtless one of the reasons M doesn’t’ post ‘political’ content – virtually never. It’s rare to have this level of heated response – maybe respect those who had/have direct experience of the times, let us vent a bit about it here – it’s an important discussion happening all over the world.

        But likewise I don’t think this is the place to slag people off for their politics – left or right – because it’s not a thread M cultivates. Her call.

        I guess we all make assumptions about the person behind the avatar – it’s a constant dance of reveal and occlude πŸ˜‰

        • I have not been disrespectful to others on this issue. Maybe don’t take my one comment above to pigeon hole me, thank you. Tomorrow I am going to the second funeral in less than a m

          • Second in less than a month. Grief is personal as are opinions. I respect that right in all human beings. I’ve supported MM’s work for many years, but only recently started to place my voice here. I respect your opinion but might suggest you read all our comments before casting the first stone Quintile.

            • Sorry for your loss S. I don’t know that this thread is a good place to be getting healing for your grief though. Good luck.

      • Her children didn’t come because she was a total beeatch? Life’s very simple – what goes around comes around!

    • Well that’s so easy for you to say when your region wasn’t destroyed because of her and people like her. I won’t piss on her grave but I refuse to sugarcoat her horrible legacy.

    • Sorry Anon, get a handle and come in and comment properly.

      Don’t try to sanitize history or how people feel about her. Fuque that one million times. Now is precisely the right time to discuss what she did and what followed. I want my daughter to know what she did, and what followed. I could t give a good goddamn about being polite about her death, she was a nightmare in life and in death she is totally not mourned by the millions of people her policies personally affected. Don’t try to make out she should be immune from this, in life she relished being a public figure and her death is no different. Personally, Anon, whoever you are, I won’t feel an empty space if you leave this forum, after all, you are so….anonymous.

      And Ellie, your commentary is tiresome and childish and totally uninformed and sadly, it matches what I’ve come to expect of most Americans, some of the most self-centred, unreflective people on earth. I am so grateful to hear the views of intelligent, deep-thinking Americans on this blog, (and I don’t always agree with them, so it’s not just a case of hearing I want to hear But Ellie, I really think you have a way to go. Sentimentality about death is dangerous at this moment.

  24. Anyone else out there remember the 1979 election? What it was like to be female then and suddenly the opportunity was there to get a woman into the ‘top job’? It was my first election. There was a feeling of history being made. But we all know what happened next.

    • I do. I was born in UK but citizen of Australia, and 17 in 1979, but I remember thinking…god, don’t let the first woman in the top job be someone who epitomizes that dangerous combination of ideological blinkers and populist political opportunism! Even Hayek (another zealot, whom she worshipped) saw little economic benefit to be had from privatising natural monopolies, but the Baroness did just that, quite cynically, in order to serve her own political ends (short-term additions to govt revenue)
      Then, when Gillard got in, I thought, god, don’t let Australia’s first female PM be someone who is so poll-driven that she cows to mining interests, even when some much further to the right than her support EFFECTIVE resource-rent taxes!
      Sigh.

      • Hmm. I was 14 and in the UK. By the time I graduated from college the boom and been and went and there were no jobs in my industry – well there were, I took one for 3 months and the company went bust, took another one for 2 months and the small company went bust again. Eventually I took a temporary job as a filing clerk.

  25. But Thatcher was actually fiercely Plutonic – She had Saturn in Scorpio Rising so Pluto was her ruler. Not only that, Pluto squared her Sun and Mars and it was opposite her Jupiter. She was famously not born to wealth or power but with Jupiter and Pluto in tight aspect, you damn well acquire it one way or another. Pluto was her Boss – not Venus.

    “She had Saturn in Scorpio rising”

    Astro gurus Could one of you please explain this a bit more …..

    • whatever rules your ascendant is your chart ruler. Pluto rules Scorp, hence Pluto being her ruler, not Venus which rules Libra (her Sun sign)
      Get it? πŸ™‚

          • Others may be able to give a better explanation, but the rising sign is the zodiacal sign and the Ascendant is the sign and degree that was ascending on the eastern horizon (from the perspective of Earth) at the specific time and location birth. The sign changes around every two hours.
            Saturn in Scorpio rising means that Saturn was transiting Scorpio and very close to the earth’s view of the eastern horizon at the time of her birth.
            ie. so I also have Scorp rising, but by then, Saturn was transiting Aquarius, so it was not rising for me. However, at the exact time of my birth, Scorp 16 degrees was rising on the eastern horizon, and Venus was conjunct Neptune in Scorpio at 12-14 degrees, so I have Venus-Neptune on Scorpio rising.

      • Do you honestly believe that Pluto rules Scorpio? The general trend over the last decade or more is to return to the traditional rulers, especially in the case of Scorpio. Also, the chart clearly shows the importance of angularity – Saturn and the Moon give you a lot of information about Margaret Thatcher. As for Pluto, it’s main importance is telling us about Margaret Thatcher’s generation.

  26. I share the same birthday as Thatcher -thankfully I was born 40+ years later and have none of the other placements the same. The secret language of birthdays book seems to pretty much base the whole profile for this day on characteristics of Thatcher – which means the tag line at the top is “The Day of the Tough Cookie” which makes my son laugh and laugh as he thinks it should be “The day of the Soft Touch” where I am concerned.

    • so do I airhead….but have Moon in Cancer conjunct MC which I hope makes for a bit more compassion than that brutal woman.

      • Oh cool .. snap on the birthday. I have Aqua rising and moon – so thankfully far less brutal than that woman for me too.

  27. What a strange juxtaposition – the amazing Artemesia who i want to be my spirit guide, moon, freedom wild women and um, thatcher. Don’t get me wrong, i have many conservative friends and i respect different ideologies but she was hideously divisive and casualties from that falklands thing so sad and unneccessary.

    but hah hah to the idea of hades being ecomomically rationalized by her. also very leo (moon) to die at the Ritz.

    • I mean is she not the one that kicked single parents off the parenting pension and forced them onto newstart? …. nice

      and without compensating mechanisms for childcare so that the parent can actually afford to go to work.

      And isn’t she the one that undermined the carbon tax instead delivering this watered down flaccid carbon policy that is completely ineffective and a total waste of time and resources?

      • as I understand it, the single parents only have to go back to work once the youngest child is 8 (?) or at school (?)

        Fair enough, I’m sorry but having a child doesn’t give you a gravy train for other people to pay for you for the rest of your life. I also work full time, look after a house, look after myself…. when your kid’s at school, you have the day free to go and get a job like other people. I read a ridiculous letter from a woman in a newspaper who seemed to think it was important for her children to have home cooked meals and a clean home every day….. Puhlease, my taxes are paying for her through my hard work and I don’t have a clean house or home cooked meals cos I’m Working. So sympathy factor zero.

        Also, you need to keep your hand in in the “real world” (ok be offended if you want) but I worked hard to get where I was, earning money, it didn’t happen by itself that I walked out the door of my house and I instantly got offered a perfect job that suited me utterly. Sure, I’d love to stay home and bake cupcakes, but that’s a privilege, not something that taxpayers should pay for you to do, just because you’d rather do that than get a job, (oh, and you have a kid that other people are looking after and educating during daytime hours).

        • One of the things I really like about Gillard is that she seems to have an intelligent team – as seen on Q and A – my mind’s gone blank for names other than Penny Wong, Jenny Macklin, Bill Shorten, and Greg Combet for the minute. But to have people like that being loyal and supporting you counts for something.

          They introduced the carbon tax. You have to start somewhere. Its an introductory thing. I admire them for doing it, I think its deliberately kept a little under the radar but they are committed to addressing the big issues (climate change) even if not everyone knows about it.

          • They also took one of the biggest mining booms in Australian history & the savings made by the Libs & squandered it on pathetic pink bats schemes.

            When somebody steals your life savings it is theft. When someone steals a country’s savings I call it … treason.

            • Didn’t they introduce the stimulus to prevent a recession? Aren’t savings for a rainy day? They have to keep the $ moving because we live with the capitalist model and that’s how it works?

              The thing I don’t appreciate is the ongoing grandoise schemes that are borrowing from the future. Because they want people to vote them in again.

              Although I don’t have any time for Gillard on the whole, there is a lot of subterfuge around what her and her government have achieved. They have done quite a lot that is seldom mentioned. Yes they’ve had some humungous fuck ups but they have also done some good and I don’t feel as though they are given the credit where it’s due for some of those things.

              Dental care for those on pensions.

              Raising the medicare threshold for lower income earners.

              Raising the tax-free threshold.

              Progress with the Murray Darling that no other government has yet been able to achieve. No one will ever be completely happy with the Murray Darling, but to achieve some consensus is quite something.

              They almost had the Forest Peace Deal done at one point when Gillard kept nipping off to tassie for overnight meetings on a sunday – if it weren’t for the hard-liners down there clinging to their unsustainable industry and croneyism / jobs for the boys trying to prop up an industry that belongs in the past, that would be sorted too.

              She gave the towns in Tasmania who had lost mills because of the deal funding for retraining so they could transition to new industries.

              The mining tax hasn’t worked for a few reasons but one of them is that the miners restructured their businesses in order to avoid tax. Big picture, there is also cheap slave labour in other nations that are resource rich, so don’t go thinking that them talking about moving offshore is all about running away from the high costs of the tax here, they’re running into the arms of the next despotic government they can find who will sell their people and their nation’s natural resources down the river for a quick buck.

              The pink batts scheme was a good idea in theory because it was supposed to reduce power bills for low income earners, it provided stimulus in terms of job creation and training which should have then led to those newly trained workers to be able to work on new houses that are being built because the economy was still supposed to be humming.

              The problem with the pink batts thing was that their were a lot of dodgy people with their hands out wanting to steal the public purse by becoming pink batts installers. These people went on to not train their staff well enough to do the job safely and the whole thing snowballed.

              The problem wasn’t with the policy, it was with the overseeing of the training given and the selection of contractors. It was at a bureaucratic level that it failed. The checks and balances weren’t in place.

              There’s a lot more good that’s happened that is never mentioned and not enough column width to do it here. I just hope that people take a balanced look at things when they vote. As far as I’m concerned both candidates are bitter pills.

              I do wonder if Australians realise how lucky they are relative to the rest of the globe.

              And no, I am not a Gillard voter.

        • I hear you … but I also think situations like this need to be taken on a case by case basis. It’s not an equal playing field put there and single parents have different personal circumstances that may be a barrier to gaining employment. I always keep in mind that punitive measures against single parents end up punishing their children as well. It’s a tough issue, one that needs to be carefully considered before making blanket policy.

          • Yes, I agree, and I am speaking from single parent experience. Living on welfare is barely living, and we are working harder at home than people without children or even people with supportive partners can imagine, and sometimes with actively unsupportive ex partners making things even harder. Single parents who are taking up their own responsibilities and those that others have let go need support.

            Our work options are limited by our circumstances. I hardly ever draw a pension but I am a casual seasonal worker and sometimes have trouble getting work for 4 months over summer, 6 weeks of which kids are also home on school holidays. It’s tough. I’m still recovering financially now from the hardship. I had trouble feeding my kids for an extended period of time. It’s very draining – poverty is a full time job. The pension doesn’t go close to covering basic living costs and Newstart is less. Newstart is hard for single people to survive on – try supporting 3 kids on that as well. There are some people who aren’t as well places to get work and in some places not sufficient opportunity, so what are these already severely stretched (usually) women to do?

            Suffer the little children I guess!

  28. Ugghhh hideous, vile, simpering old bitch. Glad she’s kicked the bucket. If she were alive I wouldn’t piss on her if she were on fire …. the damage one person can do to a nation and its people in just a few short years.

  29. The Music that came about out of this political landscape is what I shall be focusing on. Thatcherism strokes my fur the wrong way.
    Pegasus – like your HB graphic. It has movement, anticipation and a touch of anime. Lovely.

    • Why thanx ‘S’, anime is one of my definite likes, the Yamamoto wind cheaters of the early 80’s were colourful & movies like ‘Ghost in the Shell’.
      Libran Moon adores Beauty & the Mars in Virgo for pens pencils, rulers & paper! x

      • Do you have other sketches that I could view online? I get creative cabin fever when I can’t go to a decent gallery. Got to kick my paint mojo in the bum somehow.

  30. Wish a few more ‘World Leaders’ present & past would die as well, they could tear each other’s throats in hell worlds, not in this beautiful one.

    HOW did Anette Funicello get mentioned with Thatcher???
    Care factor?

    • Dreadful, dreadful woman – and her legacy (and Regan’s) of neo-con and economic rationalist principles and actions will one day be seen as some of the key things that precipitated the decline of Britain’s and the USA’s ‘great power’. I lived in the UK in the early 80s *shudders*. Heard an interesting item about how Thatcher and the Queen clashed as QE11’s ‘one nation’ conservatism (that is, a compassionate conservatism founded on an idea of an organic society, with special responsibilities on those with wealth – not Aussie One Nation) and committment to the idea of a Commonwealth (common wealth) where total anathema to Thatcher.

      (no, I’m not a royalist lol)

      • She came from humble origins and my Leo mum (in amidst angry rants) often said that Thatcher was a peasant with delusions of grandeur. She resented her origins and always had a chip on her shoulder about class. Many despots are similar – Idi Amin for example. Some of the most compassionate people in humanitarian terms come from wealthy or priveliged backgrounds which I always find heartening.

        • Your Mum was right! She was trying to eclipse the Queen. Dress, coiffure, handbag carriage, lessons for rp accent etc etc. Thing is, she never had a sense of humour about herself and had that vile smiling assassin mannerism.
          Me and my peers spent the 80’s marching against her and can’t understand the lack activism in the young now….. she created the foundations for the mess UK is in at the moment.

          • it’s the anaesthesia of the comfortably-off middle class I guess? Give everyone a home mortgage, and they’ll never go on strike. Also, the triumph of an individualist society.. “I’m all right, jack”

            • I have to admit, I have always liked the word “common wealth” and am glad it is attached to the official title of Australia.

  31. thatcher = SATAN she could have done something positive with all that crazy energy instead of impose neoliberal policies which exploited already marginalized peoples. but no. she actually just went with the game thats ruining the world. what an idiott

  32. Oh the supremely awesome things she could have accomplished with a will & a fist & a force of nature reputation like hers…

    Intentions are everything.

    She’ll be back. Hopefully after a good karmic adjustment & recalibration of worldly agendas.

      • Bought Stateside in mid-80s at a groomer’s, to announce my solidarity with my new exchange family in the UK. While there I travelled north to meet a fellow teen pen-pal from York. What a depressing trip! My first encounter with Thatcher economics and its effects on my generation.

        It was quite an unexpected education.

    • Yes. I really hope this reminds people of politics again, there are a lot of kids here who don’t know who she is nor even know who the actual Prime Minster is.. Apathy is chic, It’s cool not to like politics or care about anything now but it is an important reminder about how things have come to be. At least it is being discussed.

    • I was just thinking about Billy Bragg as I read this – his “Talking with the Taxman about Poetry” album was inspired by the Thatcher years. I love that album and Billy.

  33. Ding dong indeed. No compassion here. Her ideas and vision of Britain and the world deserve to die with here, although I fear they never will.

    This woman caused immense misery to the poor of Britain, and horror to the rest of us watching from the outside.

    Remember the poll tax.
    Remember the London Riots of the 1980s (a direct result of the poll tax).
    Remember the Falklands War.
    Remember how she broke the miners.
    Remember how she destroyed communities and promoted the individual above all.

    Britain has never fully recovered.

    To give hope to others I offer this version of The Internationale by the late, great, Alistair Hulett who I first came across at the Sandringham Hotel on King Street Newtown and who fueled the fire of justice, community and unity in my heart, and opened a window into a world beyond the news.

    • Thanks so much for this link to a wonderful version of The Internationale, virgolicious, good on you! Reminds you just what life was like under Thatcher for those who weren’t rich and who were hit so hard by her and her government. The adulation of the wealthy for someone who simply served the wealthy at the expense of humanity makes me feel sick. Her legacy? Greed, selfishness and immense hardship for so many ordinary folk. Glad to see the back of the old bat and stuff any thoughts of don’t speak ill of the dead. Can’t see why death suddenly sanctifies a cruel disgrace for a human being. And as for being the first woman Prime Minister, who wants a woman in office who simply does the same as men in office – wages war; screws the poor; smashes community. Good riddance to very bad rubbish.

      • Wonder if it’s a Libra thing to go stuff it about ‘not speaking ill of the dead’? I’ve had ‘ding dong the witch is dead, which witch, the wicked witch’ – apologies to all Wiccans πŸ™‚ – going through my head today.

        She was an evil old bat who doesn’t deserve glorifying just because she carked it – I’m sure George Negus would agree?

      • The last part of your post is the line I want to use for every “feminist” who idolizes her. I hold her and Reagan personally responsible for destabilizing my homeland….from which it has never fully recovered.

        • Yes. It’s never recovered. The greed, dishonesty and violence are what, finally, drove me to leave 4 years’ ago. To see mums fighting each other on buses (I was a community healthworker) and to take the top of a bus when the kids came home from school was a time I don’t want to remember! Being beaten up by three 15 year olds on a nightbus coming back from a night out at Ronnie Scotts in Central London was the last of it.

          • Oh, I’m sorry for the confusion! Im from South/East Africa . A place formerly plagued by a war in which was financed by Aparthied South Africa who in turn was supported by the U.S. and Great Britian. It seems she was just as shitty to people within her own borders though.

      • Exactly. I was on Twitter when news of her death broke.

        I tweeted ‘The beautification of St Thatcher has begun. Funny how people become wonderful as soon as they die.’

      • Pinochet, her support of Apartheid, the fact she thought Mandela a terrorist, Clause 28, (outlawing the ‘promotion’ of LGBT lifestyle as ‘pretend families’), selling off council housing, the poll tax. A despicable woman and legacy.

      • ah, Pinochet, isn’t that the beloved leader whom the US government installed when Allende wouldn’t do as he was told? I am referring to a potentially faulty memory of one university lecture here, nothing more, pls correct if wrong

        • Yes, that sounds right Pi.
          Saddam Hussein got CIA funded to be a nice little despot, Osama was a great friend of the Bush family etc.

          Without money and US backing, it is very, very, very, very, very hard work to become a despot!!!!
          Sheesh. Alexander the Great made it look so easy.

    • Yay! She sucked. She ruined Britain, literally tore it apart into the haves and the have-nots, the white collars and the blue, and chucked the latter into the gutter, where they slide down ever further each year where they can be demonised by those standing on the sidewalk without fear of reproach.

      And she set an outstanding example for those who followed. Bush n Lil Johnnie…and Abbot, and Mr Cameron and his despicable deifying of her.

      I don’t give a good goddamn about respect. I was in London in the 80’s, I remember the fear and loathing. Good riddance and good luck, even the Devil probably doesn’t want you. Eternity in limbo.

      • Also, there was a great article on the Guardian online today about how ‘respect’ when somebody dies helps to rewrite history, turning one of the most shocking leaders the West has ever seen into simply a very strong and inspiring leader.

        She was not. She doesn’t deserve to be remembered that way. Kids should learn the real history – the woman was a heartless bitch who couldn’t see the wood for the trees, and a warmongering racist into the bargain.

        Go get the beautiful book by Raymond Briggs “The Tinpot Foreign General and the Old Iron Woman” Now that’s the real Thatcher in all her glory. She was a tragedy and she caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands and the poverty of millions.

  34. Honestly, I never thought there was a leader my parents despised more than Reagan….then I remembered this woman. Well, R.I.P, wherever she may be.

  35. I haven’t read the details but I assume this was unexpected. A lot of my conservative friends like her efforts. I will read more.

    Me: Libra rising / Leo Moon.. I feel very similar to the description of Lady Thatcher. eek!!

    Sorry to those areas deeply affected by this news.

    Annette Funicello passed away too. Very sad about both announcements!

  36. …she’s only been in Hades 6 hours and has already sold off 3 of the furnaces and closed down the rest..

    • well, there are greater efficiencies to be won by utilising existing hell holes on earth, they’re way under capacity.

    • Actually, she’s closing down the minor hells and consolidating the lot into one large hell which she’ll sell off to the highest private bidder. All the devil’s minions are picketing as we speak, and there are busloads of scabs being trucked down below. Sting’s writing a song about it, if he can find his guitar ….( Sting…a hint…try looking in the 34th bedroom, you know, the one that comes off the 100 meter indoor pool, just beside the full-sized marble statue of yourself and Bono having an intimate moment….)

      • I came of age during the Thatcher-Reagan era, when these world leaders did everything possible to destroy everyone’s belief in our mutual destiny. Nope, no compassion is possible for that.

        • I was in my 20’s though Thatch era in UK and saw so many communities devastated by her policies who now are being completely fuqed over again by Cameron/Osborne with the benefits reform. People ARE rejoicing and are having parties in the street. I’m afraid that it was she that lacked compassion.

          • I was driving around today, listening to NPR and the BBC on the radio. I heard some astonishing things:

            -Thatcher was a radical feminist. Before Thatcher, women could not own property, hold elected office, or work in executive jobs.

            -Thatcher was an anti-Imperialist, boldly preventing the aggressive expansion of the Argentinian Empire.

            -Thatcher singlehandedly ended the Cold War and reunified Germany.

            – Thatcher singlehandedly ended Apartheid.

            -Thatcher started the Gulf War and defeated Saddam Hussein.

            -Thatcher liberated government from the onerous duty of serving the citizens.

            – Thatcher saved society from the oppressive Labour Union movement.

            I am not sure how people could actually believe such rubbish.

            • Yes… I heard the same thing!! I was a very politically aware teenager/20-something during Thatcher’s reign of terror. My husband and I were aghast… Are they talking about the same person who wrecked manufacturing, mining, the unions, the entire country? The person who did NOTHING for peace in Northern Ireland? The creepy attraction to Pinochet? The woman who went off to fight over some silly islands no one had ever heard of? The most divisive prime minister I think England has ever endured??? Sheesh. Amazing what 30 years does! I’m not surprised about the state of her birth chart though. It takes a very particular person to see children living in poverty and keep going at them – like during the miners’ strike. Awful. The feelings still run so deep.

          • Yes – I was in my late teens when Thatcher came to power. She destroyed the country. ‘There is no such thing as society’ she famously said. Britain is a far nastier place because of her and her policies. Completely wrecked communities, destroyed social housing, de-regulated the city, destroyed industry, set greed and ambition as ruling over everything. She was not compassionate, not one bit. I agree with Charles and DoubleLib.

            • “no such thing as society” – the ultimate neo-liberal dream.. what they prefer is every man for himself. individuals, not communities, the opposite of socialism (which at he other end of the scale has its own problems).

            • Yes, and let’s not forget that she was, apparently, the inventor of the neocon acronym ‘TINA’: ‘there is no alternative’. Well, that’s just utter rubbish, isn’t it? There’s ALWAYS an alternative! But then, I’m Sagg Sun with Gemini Rising…!! πŸ˜‰

          • ….yes and Clause 28. An e-petition has started here to deny her a state funeral. That’s how much she is hated by (most) of my generation. Difficult to reconcile at the time that it was brilliant, finally, to have a female Prime Minster but one that did so much damage.

            • Yes doublelib – I’m in Oz and have just been reading the news on the internet – SURELY no state funeral, paid for by Britain’s taxpayers. I will joint the bloody petition.

            • I’d sign that! I really love Ken Loach’s comment that the funeral should be ‘privatised and sold off to the cheapest bidder’ because ‘she would have wanted that’. Hilarious! Go Ken! I do think, BTW, that many people are underestimating the depth of feeling about her…

              • Ken Loach has put it so elegantly. You’re right about depth of feeling about her, such vociferous loathing…expecting a demo in London at her funeral procession

    • Disassociated.. LOL!!

      <>

      Are you an American or did you take a history class on politics for the US? If not.. Google it! The US and UK thought they were the “power couple” in politics. Whether it is true or not.. we will never know but at that time they had a lot going on hence “history”… πŸ™‚

    • <>

      Very interesting comment using Hitler as an analogy. So you see some Hitler symptoms in the US showing up? May not be exactly what he did that is catching your eye but the dictatorship approach stands out. You are smart. So, yes, his horrific leadership for a country was made very clear to me during HS as it should for everyone else. He played an important part in your life so you can’t pass the buck on this one! Hence, you needed to bring it up. πŸ™‚

      • My bf always says that people compare things to Hitler when they’re trying to make a point that something is “obviously bad/stupid”.

        Like, who can dispute the evilness of Hitler, better yet who would try to?

        Odd comparison and quite frankly very lazy.

        I was a toddler when Reagan was in office so I don’t have any firsthand account of what life was like when he was in office. I have, however, taken a series of U.S. History classes (undergrad and grad). Depending how long your “best president” list is, he could be on that list. Lord knows there have been worse presidents than him.

        If I had a top 5, he wouldn’t make the list but anyway it’s not uncommon nor is it illogical to compare Thatcher to Reagan.

        As VE pointed out they were very much allies and had similar opinions on various things. So if you liked Reagan, I could see how you could like Thatcher. If you liked Thatcher, which apparently hardly anyone on this site does, I could see how you would like Reagan. They were both quite conservative and had very controversial economic plans.

        It’s awful to jump on anyone for their political opinion. You’re not going to “educate” or convert anyone by insulting them.

          • It’s not about hating VE, who seems a very sweet girl. it’s just that it seems she is oblivious to the upset the majority feel re Thatcher. It would be nice if VE would not play a victim & it would be nice if she could wake up re her Love Zombie tendencies politically & personally.

            • Oh wait.. let me clear the air here. Yes, I honestly did not know much about Thatcher.. all I know is that my friends who I respond well to have been in line with my concerns about the US! SO, I am trying to understand Thatcher and I honestly believe that Lady T is very similar to what we are dealing with in the US. That is it. So, I am getting prepared to how my future will be based on what everyone has been saying here! I Thank you for being honest about your hatred. That is exactly how I feel about who is in charge right now in the US. My defensiveness is the loss of money and my health because of government.

              I love being a LZ.. It is one the best things that has ever happened to me since 2009 when I started my life over! I picked myself up and moved 1000 miles away by myself, no job, gave my health concerns to God and I have never been happier. He knows it so he will always be dear to my heart! Always! You make it sound so negative! πŸ™

              • Glad you are happy.
                Don’t understand the loving being a Love Zombie thing??
                I make it sound so negative to be a Love Zombie? Well, yeah..

        • Well how about Virgo Elle stops trying to convert and “educate” the majority here who aren’t conservative!! Or insulting us by saying we’re an embarrassment to Mystic. Puhleeese give her more credit!!

            • Not any of the people so far mentioned are really good examples of humanity, they were good at power , but not the power of the human heart.

              • Anon.. you are absolutely correct. And it is getting worse. When people feel as though they are losing control of a situation they need to grabbed a hold of something. Unfortunately right now it is at the cost of human lives!

            • “I am not trying to convert anyone. I just stating my position on the life in the US.”

              And isn’t that exactly the problem? Thatcher’s death and how the English feel about her and what happened in the 80s have little to do with life in the US. Why do Americans insist on seeing everything from their patch of land and sticking their two cents into a topic that they clearly know nothing about, simply to drag the discussion back to America?

              • I was actually Thanking You and others for posting what you have experienced because that is what we (US) will probably be in the future. Very sad the signs are very clear before this blog and now after reading what you have posted. Why does everyone hate the US so much.. sheesh? xo!!

        • sorry, but if the spectre of lazy thinking/argument is going to be raised in this thread the comment about Hitler is not the one that comes to my mind.

          if you’re going to make comments on serious political topics without any real engagement with the issues and without any intellectual rigour then you are leaving yourself open to critique.

          additionally, what seems lazy to me is this easy sentiment around death. We should not sanitise history just because someone died (which we all do). It is actually appropriate to review the damage she was involved in doing while she was alive at this moment.

          Now, Ellie. If you are really interested in self development, you’re going to have to work a bit harder than this. You could learn from this by being open to what those around you are saying – yes, in whatever way it is being said – and take responsibility for your active part in this dynamic.

          • Calypso.. what do you want to know? I am totally open to providing information to support my position with the political mess I am in.

            • I don’t want to know anything Ellie. You’ve misunderstood my point. I’m trying to encourage you to listen more and talk less about things you have a level of ignorance about in the most encouraging way I am capable of.

                • look, you’ve joined a community of pretty sophisticated thinkers and you’re tossing off opinions that are clearly based in a foundation of ignorance. Being opinionated about something that you don’t actually understand is not a great way for you to use your energies or present yourself, and will likely result in the sort of criticism you have received here.

                  rather than respond defensively, use it for your self-development. consider your role. You are being reactive rather than processing what lessons there may be for you here.

              • sorry – that was less constructive than it could be.

                I think you could benefit from a more robust practice of self-reflection. Put your energies inwards in a critical way and by that I don’t just mean in a negative way but with as great a level of objectivity and openness to positive change as you can.

                • To be honest, it still sticks in my memory that VE is a big fan of Sarah Palin’s, which makes me not take her political opinion seriously

                  • I know. The machinations of – well, I dont; even know what to call it – on display ere are frankly frightening.

                    Thank goodness she’s not in a position of influence herself! πŸ˜‰

                  • Thank you Calypso. You got summed it up perfectly. Thanks for taking the effort (and patience!) to eloquently explain it to VE.

                  • welcome BE – consider that one for you….personal responsibility is the thingI’mspriuking, and Thatcher waslackingin that too!

  37. A child of Thatcher here, born the year after she came to power, she really was the bogeyman of my childhood, hard not to be simultaneously impressed and horrified by her.

    That Libra/Leo combo seems to be such a political marker, so many of them have it in some form, guess it makes perfect sense.

  38. UK is going ape over here with the Death of Thatcher. First thing I wondered on her astro was Pluto. So unsurprised to see she has saturn rising as well, in scorpio no less. I wonder what Britian’s thing is with such characters in history (politics aside for 5)

  39. Not born to wealth per se( the grocers daughter ), but these things are relative …. no ?

    An oxford education and resulting little black book are desirous trappings … yes ?

    But in the end treated very badly by her own team, the old boys network got out their collective opprobrium to wimen (deliberate), and thanked her not.

    A fan of Hayek apparently, how would she and Kev have got on i wonder.

    • I well remember the day she left Downing Street, and given what she did to the poor and low income earners in Britain, I personally rejoiced.

      Class snobbery and sexism may have been the boys club prejudices that led to her bad treatment by her party early on.

      Arguably, though, it was her own habit of publicly humiliating her ministers, and steamrolling them in policy discussions that was a major factor in her loss of support within her own party.

      Er, in relation to her somewhat messianiac view of herself, and her “Cabinet of one” approach to internal party policy decision-making processes, I can’t help see a few parallels with Kev, and his fate, lol.

      But Kev would never have implemented a poll tax that meant that a little old lady who owned nothing more than a tiny bedsitter paid the same rates as a multimilionaire in a pentouse.

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