Astro-The Lady Or The Tiger

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The Lady or the TigerThe Lady Or The Tiger – Lori Field

Here is an interesting little Astro-Query for this Full Moonie Monday Morning…

All you need do is go read Frank Stockton’s brilliant short story The Lady Or The Tiger here (it actually IS short) and then come back to answer the question – The Lady Or The Tiger?  – with your Sun Sign and/or astro data you deem relevant. eg; your absolutely brutal and ruthlessly primordial Venus Pluto Saturn set-up or something.

I’m interested to see the stats – and the reasoning – for this one.  The story was published in 1882…

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Lisa B
Lisa B

I think the barbarian princess will feed him to the tiger and get herself a new lover, much less fuss than having to scheme and try to prise him from the lovely lady. If the story hadn’t mentioned that she hates the lady and is madly jealous then I would think otherwise, but for me, that seals it. On the other hand I wouldn’t be able to do that, even though I would really want to….I would spend the rest of my life scheming and trying to win him back. I just couldn’t have his death on my conscience, I… Read more »

RedlipstickVirgo
RedlipstickVirgo

To the lady, I couldn’t kill my lover. Anyway, in ten years they probably have another affair when he is bored!

Sassy
Sassy

Maybe its a societal thing? Maybe it shows a collective conscious that we want the world to be a better place, or that we see that the world needs more compassion and forgiveness. Or maybe we are just looking too deeply into it? heheh 🙂

I think it might show ourselves on both accounts, I was purely going off my astro aspects.

FireTrine
FireTrine

Maybe we do need some hope! I like that idea Sassy. Btw, you and the inheritance? Ever happen? Is it to do with that aspect of Neptune and the Moon?

FireTrine
FireTrine

Is this story meant to show who we ‘really are’?
Are we answering according to a mythical past or drawing on our higher self in the present?
When I look at the answers I feel like I see that people are looking for a Utopian solution (she is compassionate and forgiving and gives him the lady) or recreating a feminist past that never existed (she overthrows the king).

Maybe it’s the Sun in Aries affecting me, but I feel like there is some Neptunian wishfulness going on… It’s very interesting!

Is that too

FireTrine
FireTrine

too?

Lesly
Lesly

Oh gosh! I had to write the ending to that story when I was in the fifth grade! I remember what I wrote, too. It was a few pages long with as many big words as I could shove in without sounding too over-the-top (thank you, thesaurus, for being my bff during middle school). I wrote that the man would be faced by the tiger as the door opened, but the Princess would later poison herself in order to find him in the afterlife (and she did!). She loved him too much to see him marry anyone else and felt… Read more »

andrew
andrew

..oh sorry, the pluto thing:

1st house libra

trine saturn (9th house gemini)
trine midheaven (gemini)
sextile jupiter (3rd house sag)
sextile neptune (1st house virgo)

ScorpioBeth
ScorpioBeth

My boyfriend would feed me to the tiger without a second thought xD He’s SO jealous.
I’d give him the lady though. I reckon that’s what the Princess did too, she’d want to break free from her fathers power, be in control of events and change the pattern of barbarity.

year of the fox
year of the fox

Libra Sun.

I think the tiger came out. Apparently whatever time period was supposed to be about, marriage is cheap because you can just dispose of previous wives and sexist…because what happens to women who go to prison? No mention of a handsome man to marry?

prowlncat
prowlncat

The story is a parable and meditation on the human condition. The tiger symbolises pure instinct. The marriage symbolises pure love. The King represents idealistic principles that in actuality become “barbaric” and cruel: think how many times men argued for war or revolution based on the paternalistic notion that it’s for the “greater good” regardless of the collateral damage: the Crusades, all the World Wars, Russian Revolution, Communist China …. et al The Princess symbolises the choice between the two (instinct and unconditional love): the only feminine energy here, nodding to the concept that the feminine energy principle is more… Read more »

prowlncat
prowlncat

ewwwwwps …… Cancer Sun Venus, Aqua Mars & Midheaven, too many natal friggin Pluto aspects to mention including one that Mystic refers to as the Guru conjunction .. or sumthin … ummm Uranus and Jupiter currently aspecting everything.

fluid feline
fluid feline

Love this answer prowlncat!

Ariel
Ariel

The more I reflect upon it, the less I am able to make up my mind. Love everyone’s replies. I think from the characterization she would have chosen the tiger – but I was convinced she was going to come out the door as the lady instead – how silly that she didn’t! (Idealistic Venus trine Neptune speaking there.) However, perhaps she hates the girl so much because she knows he is going to pick her door. It’s a very sad story… However, if the love had gone bad, there’s no question he would be ripped to shreds coming out… Read more »

Savannah
Savannah

Maybe I’ve got an attention span of a gnat at the moment & I don’t what what kind of transit I’m ploughing through right now…..but it bored the bollocks off me & I couldn’t stick with who & what no matter how hard I tried.

I find reading lots of text on a screen too hard sometimes.

Sun, venus & merc Aqua, Kataka moon & asc.

Baristagem
Baristagem

😆

unpredictable pisces
unpredictable pisces

nah the first section drones on and ON AND ON but i forced myself to read it (mainly because the alternative was a boring work document..oops)

Upbeat Scorp
Upbeat Scorp

The first section DOES drone on and on… the run-on sentences alone are enough to turn anyone off. It sort of gets it together though. I remember reading it in school, so I kept on reading. It sounds like it was translated from a different language, but by two completely different people.

Über Virgo
Über Virgo

Patriarchal literature is always long winded. It needed a Virgo editor.

Rebecca Scorpio
Rebecca Scorpio

I say the lady… because they could always have another, more secret affair!

Sun: Scorpio, Venus: Scorpio, Saturn: Cancer, Pluto: Libra

Upbeat Scorp
Upbeat Scorp

The tiger for sure. Its not about him anymore, its about the lady not getting him. She hates her, the story is very clear on that. The hatred comes from jealousy.. so she has already decided (probably wrongly) that her lover will find the lady alluring, maybe even more alluring than her, and forget all about her immediately. A princess can’t have that. Her pride will be ruined. Well, even further ruined that is, after the whole public spectacle of her love life being broadcast to all those peasants, thanks a lot Dad.

(Sun/Venus Scorp, Leo Moon, Toro asc.)

piscescorp
piscescorp

The lady – firstly she clearly cared enough to find out the one thing even the King himself did not know, the author also says their souls are one – not just mere bed companions – her barbaric side is shown when she deliberates for days over which she will choose – but to kill the one person who dared to love her? Unless of course she knew he would prefer to die then the tiger & her deliberation is actually about whether she is barbaric enough to let him live. Either way, love is the answer.

piscescorp
piscescorp

Sun: Pisces, ascending: scorpio, moon: capricorn

Seabird
Seabird

I would have given him the lady. And I think the princess, being a princess with training would have too. The tiger is too quick. Plus, if the man fell straight for the lady, would you want him anyway? A lover kept under duress is not a lover. Killing or behaving spitefully to the lover is not going to get either of you anywhere. The lady offers the chance of redemption for at least one of the players involved. She gave him the lady – he married her, she was beautiful but vacant and they had three children together before… Read more »

samantha
samantha

i love this answer…. 🙂

Lexicorn
Lexicorn

Bravo! I LOVE IT!
I only hope the Tiger farm was a preservation / conservation one, not a breeding ground for more nasty kings. OR, oh yes, she trains them to be soft gentle kitties, sells them to her father in secrecy, and when future bachelors choose door number two they get licked and purred upon, making the king a laughing stock and leading to a people’s revolution and new democratic government.

Seabird
Seabird

Actually, I had in mind just a large place where tigers could hang out, undisturbed, unseen. maybe a rehab centre for all those poor tigers forced to do the king’s dirty work. Kind of something like giving the former lover to the lady, and keeping the tigers where they want to be, in secret. It’s freeing. Or possibly I’m thinking too much!

samantha
samantha

seabird what sign are you?

Über Virgo
Über Virgo

Yes! And she got a uni degree along the way. Even better, a PhD.

andrew
andrew

Piled High and Deep?

saturnian
saturnian

PS: Sagg sun/mercury/mars/venus, Cap moon, Aquarius rising

saturnian
saturnian

The Tiger – but I would hope not just to assuage her jealousy but also that he would not have to spend the rest of his days married to a woman that he did not love.

Not very po-mo (postmodern) of me, I realise…

The po-mo ending would be the lady behind the door and the proncess carries on in an affiar with him or they just call it quits and get on with their lives….

gem
gem

I would give him the lady, let him be happy. Maybe that’s my emotionally detached Aqua moon. Shrug.

Aqua Fey
Aqua Fey

Princess delivers the tiger, which is why she is ashen faced. Daddy the King probably knows she bribed someone for the info, so it’s a test of her mettle as much as anything else. Lover knows his princess well enough to know this was always going to end in tears (blood and guts too). Don’t know enough about the Lover to know if he was strong enough to go against the door indicated by the Princess. God help us if he was Libran… he may still be standing in front of those doors today. Aqua sun, leo rising, taurus moon,… Read more »

squeakmaster
squeakmaster

I think he gets the tiger no matter which door she indicates.

I also think the king, the princess, and the lover are all the same person. The story reads as though it’s a dream.

Sun in pisces, moon in aqua, virgo rising. Saturn-Mars conjunct in Scorpio.

saturnian
saturnian

That’s a great response squeakmaster!

tati
tati

oooooh!

davidl
davidl

I think the lady…then she waves her left hand and the tiger jumps out and eats both of them.

Upbeat Scorp
Upbeat Scorp

Ha!

andrew
andrew

bitter, prty of one? your non window table is ready. *giggle*

FireTrine
FireTrine

I am sure I was this lady in a past life! Well if I were the Princess and a barbaric Leonic Princess at that AND I had Saturn conjunct Venus SQUARING Pluto, and I was Rising Aries opposing Uranus… For a start, I would be resistant to change, I would be insecure, I would be jealous and as a Leo, I would feel deserving of meting out a judgement. The fiercest TIGER in the kingdom would be coming to eat my ill-advised lover and I would not feel guilty. Indeed, I would comfort myself with the fact he did not… Read more »

unpredictable pisces
unpredictable pisces

ohh. this is about trust, passion, compassion and mercy… does he trust her and in what way? does he trust her jealous and possibly bloody-minded nature? or does he trust her love for him to show him mercy and let him live? is he so passionate that he would die for this? her and no other? the story asks us to consider what the princess would do. We aren’t given much of her background or personality, no indications of a merciful nature, just a rather simple “she is half barbarian, hot blooded, desirous” etc. and i agree with some of… Read more »

unpredictable pisces
unpredictable pisces

i forgot: pisces sun (9th), gemini rising. grand air trine mars, asc, NN. Moon in Cap.. Venus in aries

unpredictable pisces
unpredictable pisces

mars in 8th.

Whit
Whit

Sag.

I read short so I thought, “Hmm, why not?” then I saw it and there were a lot of words so after skimming (reading two lines). Le tigre? Because they are kings.

andrew
andrew

libra sun/virgo rising/leo moon…. venus in scorp/mars in aqaurius:

the lady… the writer spent too much time telling me how callous her father is, and i am supposed to think that she is as well? she could, if the moon were right, and venus was stinging herself in scorpio, arrange to have the lady tried for something or other– effectively rendering the young man single again.

she’s gonna be queen– she ought to get used to having to manipulate men. just saying.

Lexicorn
Lexicorn

I like your plan here. I mean honestly, what self respecting princess would give up her man so blithely? put up a fight why dontcha?! even if it does mean disposing of the other woman in due course… I’m sure she’ll have fun with the others Nuns on the turnip farm….

Rebecca Scorpio
Rebecca Scorpio

Well yes, that is the other option I thought of too (apart from the super-secret affair ofc). At least when he stays alive, there’s future possibility.

Lexicorn
Lexicorn

My Venus is in Aqua and it sextiles Neptune and trines Pluto. Pluto squares my Capricorn Sun. Yes I am a mushy romantic, but strangely pragmatic about it. I like to believe he knew she would send him to the tiger and it is what he wanted. That’s how stories like this one are suppose to end. The greater sacrifice is to both live but to live without each other. I personally, on the other hand, would totally toss him to the lady, have no issue with adultery in an ‘arranged marriage’, and would plot to throw my dick head… Read more »

Apple
Apple

Word.

gem
gem

Word too.

venus a-go-go
venus a-go-go

The father is pretty much a complete bastard.

unpredictable pisces
unpredictable pisces

lex. such sounds analysis . and the real bastard (father) gets just desserts. this airy cappy moon pisces loves it

Über Virgo
Über Virgo

I prefer your feminist ending — a triumph over the patriarchy and patriarchal 19th century stories that pose the question — if a man is brave enough to get it on with a woman above his station, should he be punished by death or rewarded with marriage (!), notably marriage to some other strumpet and not the tainted ‘princess’? Yes, I know it was written in 1882 (BC?). I don’t trust the writer’s florid description of the princess either. Her ‘fervent imperious barbarism’ etc etc as if she has any power whatsoever. She is also on trial, punished by the… Read more »

Lexicorn
Lexicorn

Hey Ubes. Speaking of your delicious personal Virgoan brand of feminism, I posted this comment earlier today mostly with you in mind. The film goes to Brizzy too….!
http://mysticmedusa.com/2010/02/03/the-once-and-future-priestess/comment-page-1/#comment-60728

Über Virgo
Über Virgo

If a pair of cottontails comes flying at you during your intro Lex, you’ll know I’ve flown to Sydney to see it.

I might even throw them without taking them off.

unpredictable pisces
unpredictable pisces

exactly Ubes, fuq the system. although you said it so much more eloquently 😉

Über Virgo
Über Virgo

Ta UP 8)

Liss
Liss

See, I take the exact opposite tack to Charles. I think she gave him the lady and he took the tiger.

Taurus Sun, Libra Moon/Rising, but I also have a fairly influential 1st house Pluto in Scorpio.

Charles
Charles

That’s the “forced defection” theory. He thinks she will give him he tiger, so he will take the opposite of her choice. She knows this. So she gives him the lady, knowing he will take the other door with the tiger.
She tricked him into taking the tiger.

unpredictable pisces
unpredictable pisces

now, that could go on forever, he would die of old age before he made his decision:.. .have you seen The Princess Bride Charles? if you have please forgive my pasting of dialogue…if not, this is a marvellous scene that is forced defection taken to the nth degree, if that’s possible in game theory…anyhow… Man in Black: All right. Where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right… and who is dead. Vizzini: But it’s so simple. All I have to do is divine… Read more »

Deliteful
Deliteful

the lady because then the princess could still have hi even if he was married.

Charles
Charles

The ending is preposterous. The man would be stupid to go to the door she indicated. Anyone versed in game theory knows how this story ends. The woman indicates the door with the tiger, on the right. The man goes to the left door and gets the woman. Both of them betray the other, this is known as a “Pareto-suboptimal solution.”

Lexicorn
Lexicorn

So very clever… but oh so cold! Star stats please? From memory you are a Toro?

Charles
Charles

Yes, Sun/Moon/Mercury in Taurus, Leo ascendant, Venus in Aries, Mars in Pisces.

Yes, it’s cold. But I’m using “betrayal” in the sense mathematicians use in Game Theory, that just means suddenly choosing not to cooperate with your partner in the game. Another common term used here is “defection.” They both act in their own self-interest, knowing the others’ selfish choice will not be in their interest. In a sense, this is the “least worst” solution, it is optimally suboptimal because neither of them gets what they wants, but neither of them gets a worst-case scenario.

Lexicorn
Lexicorn

And in life can we not usually simply aspire for ‘the least worst scenario’… Hey, if they ever send me into that ring, would you mind giving me a pep talk before hand?

unpredictable pisces
unpredictable pisces

i hate the prospect of betrayal. or defection. maybe it’s my overwrought sense of loyalty (pathetic ) …oh well as i get older and wiser i come to understand the choices and preferences that I tend to make, and can work around / amend my psycho-analytical limitations, or whatever
..back to work!

saturnian
saturnian

very good analysis Charles

venus a-go-go
venus a-go-go

I am Toro and I just could not handle the thought that I sent my lover to his death.

I would send him to the lady… then possibly have the lady meet some sort of ‘accident’ on the way out of the way out of the area.
Seeing as my daddy dearest is so into fate I would then indicate that, not only was the hottie right to love me… but fate clearly wants us to be together.

bull with sting in tail
bull with sting in tail

The writer was fairly careful to aknowledge that the “acorn does not fall far from the tree”

Game on Charles

Sun Venus Toro Scorp Rising

2Natured
2Natured

it’s also called “prisoner’s dilemma.”

andrew
andrew

do mathematicians fall in love? or do they just calculate their odds?

Charles
Charles

Hmm.. I vaguely recall reading a recent cyberpunk novel that was subtitled “Mathematicians in Love.” Of course it was written by a mathematician. IIRC they fell in love after reading each other’s math papers, reading between the lines, and deducing they were secretly romantic types.

2Natured
2Natured

Charles, very interesting reading material…. hummm. Mathematicians in Love would definately be in an IRC chat room.

Charles
Charles

Ah, I found the book, that’s actually the title, not the subtitle. Here’s the website: http://www.rudyrucker.com/mathematiciansinlove/ And the blurb: “Crazy mathematicians compete for the love of two women across space, time and logic. Berkeley grad students Bela Kis and Paul Bridge have discovered the mathematical underpinnings of ultimate reality. But then they begin fighting over the beguiling video-blogger, Alma Ziff. First Bela gets Alma’s interest by starting the wildest rock band ever. But then Paul undertakes the ultimate computer hack: altering reality to make Alma his. The change brings more than he bargained for: Alma is swept away into a… Read more »

2Natured
2Natured

I’m not a mathematician, but once, while consuming large quanties of alcohol with a guy I was mildly interested in , we constructed a series of graphs using Bell curves and XY points regarding possibilities/pitfalls in our potential future relationship. By the time we finished doing various graphs we decided that we were a “no go.” We remain good friends and I get to watch all those graphs play out …. with other women. We joke about how right we were. Every now and then he gives me that lustful eye. All I have to say is , “Hell no,… Read more »

Salacious Sagg
Salacious Sagg

Sagg Sun, Scorp Rising, Gem Moon, Venus in Scorp. Personally I think it would be the tiger, as she would not want any other woman having her lover. Being a man, she would know her lover would put on a good show but then go about enjoying his fab new wife! So….Tiger’s dinner he would be 🙁 If it was me, I would let him have the lady, bit methinks her mind would be otherwise. Hopefully he knew his lover well enough, i.e that she had bitch tendencies, so hopefully he chose the opposite door to what she said. If… Read more »

AliB aqua
AliB aqua

Stupid princess. Was it not for the ‘moiety of barbarism in her nature’ that ensured she was next to daddy dear, she would have snuck into the lady chamber, disposed of the other lady and come out herself as the reward!! Tadaa.. problem solved.

Unfortunately, I feel sickly that it may have been the tiger. I want to believe it was the lady, but genes will out in the end. Wonder what the queen was like?

Aqua with virgo moon and sag asc.

Scorpleo
Scorpleo

I wondered why she didn’t do this as well.

dotty
dotty

My “absolutely brutal and ruthlessly primordial Venus Pluto Saturn set-up … or something” sun in scorp says this is an annoyingly nontrick trick question because the answer is so horribly plain: aaaorgh the tiger!

This seems all about how not to love, ie. if they are twin souls then they must both be equally narcisstic, so he fervently hopes she loves him more than her own future ‘happiness’, and she has acquired the power of life and death over him so she has absolute possession of him. A bit like my parents’ marriage, nasty.

Leogroover
Leogroover

She sounds like a real bitch she’ll give him to the tiger for sure. leo’s, I think are the most jealous sign as they can have ego and pride issues and are slightly illogial most of the time and triple expresso throw away the key loopy when it comes to love. No control no willpower nahdya whats so ever. All the ones and myself included ( tho I don’t do jealousy jsut random acts of sleeping with your ex jsut because you can kinda loopy oops did I say that out loud lol)

The Leo Socialite
The Leo Socialite

Imagine a man you love being with the most beautiful woman you can imagine and one you already suspect he has a bit of a thing for.
But then imagine the look on his face if the tiger came out and knowing that you would never ever forget it.
She would have had to have chosen the lady and then just gone home and screamed into her pillow. Stupid king.

Baristagem
Baristagem

Wow that is a brilliant story!!

The lady….

Both options are extremely unpleasant but I don’t know if she could let him be torn to shreds by a tiger… blood & guts would be a huge turn off & who knows maybe she is a vegetarian!

Gem Sun & Venus Trine Pluto

MissLibraLibra
MissLibraLibra

libra sun and moon, leo rising, sag venus, cap mars. the lady. i think she would have wanted the tiger at first and if the decision had to be instant it would have been the tiger. but the story says she thought about it for days. that time would have given her a chance to ‘cool down’ so then if she realised she truly loved him and could never be happy without him she would want him to be alive and would give him the lady. if she decided she could let him go and find happiness with another she… Read more »

Sassy
Sassy

Hmmm, I think she led him to the lady and he trusted her completely.

I think she wanted to rebel against her father and she was sick of feeling angry and jealous, she wanted to do something good. So, the lover survived.

Saggi moon-uranus and neptune and sun-venus-sappho and daphne Cancer, she overcomes her need for ‘mars scorp and venus-pluto’ revenge..thus enters the love triangle with the other woman. They start a long love affair anyway.

samantha
samantha

I can only answer if I was the princess, I would give him the lady.

Sun, moon, mercury cancer. virgo rising.

Sassy
Sassy

Must be a cancer thing..Awww we are too nice. jajajajaj

samantha
samantha

hahaha maybe… 🙂

FireTrine
FireTrine

You Cancer girls just aren’t thinking this through… He is going to be killed anyway! Get it over with already!

Sassy
Sassy

Must b the claws, hanging on for dear life. Yes we certainly have trouble letting go or knowing when to.

What do you mean he is going to be killed anyway? I didnt read that, I thought that if he chose the lady door he was shown to be innocent, thus his life spared and he then wed the lady?

Apple
Apple

The tiger. If she’s that hot-blooded and barbaric and their love is so pure, she’s going to feed him to the tiger. She may even believe that is what he would want… and perhaps it *is* what he would want – to die for his love, “guilty” as charged.

Libra Sun/Virgo Moon/Aquarius rising… but Venus and Mars in Scorpio.

Apple
Apple

I mentioned to my husband that I was mulling this over, and he said wryly, “I’m surprised you even have to think for a moment.” He seemed to be indicating that I would throw him to a tiger rather than share him (I wouldn’t, but he doesn’t need to know that). I mentioned that I found the combinations of possible outcomes/motives interesting, and that the author is asking what the princess would do, not what *I* (the reader) would do. My husband didn’t hesitate, just clarified, “She’s a barbarian princess, right? The tiger. And that’s what I’d do, too.” Well… Read more »

tati
tati

grrr… I hate cliffhangers. Authors should make up their minds! I’m not a black&white Scorp for nothing. I presume this is both a riddle (what would happen?) and a test of each reader’s point of view – do you choose love or jealousy etc. Logically according to the story it seems likely she sent him to the tiger, as she’s jealous and probably a chip off the old block (daddy isn’t exactly compassionate). However there could be some twist e.g. she indicates the lady, he thinks she is jealous by nature and sending him to his death so chooses the… Read more »

tati
tati

Next time I’ll try not to write an essay. :mrgreen:

unpredictable pisces
unpredictable pisces

i asked myself the same question Tati – female offenders – do they just get the tiger? or is there a similar stable of hotties for the girls? maybe a bag of gold, since getting married in “those times” mean a lifetime of drudgery and child birth (i assume)? sheesh 🙂

Über Virgo
Über Virgo

See my feminist take below. Females can’t possibly be offenders because they’re too helpless. Yet, they’re punished by being handed around as slaves and having no say in who they marry.

Anonymous
Anonymous

Totally agree!
I need a real ending
Everybody can make up an ending even there’s already one

bluelibra
bluelibra

If I were the princess I would give him the lady. Time heals wounds made by love but it does not return the dead. But then, I hear that ‘one’ needs an element of steel like barbarity in order to be a princess, and I’m no princess.

happy cow
happy cow

i think it was the tiger and i think he knew it was the tiger.

Lexicorn
Lexicorn

totally agree with you

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