Saturn In Libra: A New Dating Paradigm?

Michael Whelan

Well okay, I am wishfully thinking this as – a la my OWN astrological prediction – i ran into my ex the Uranian last night. And had dinner with the stupid fiend. So I am thinking this can not be, surely, IT?  No-no-no.

Saturn into Libra – the sign of relationships – is going to coincide with a fantastic new dating paradigm. Not just dating – all forms of relationship. Fresh rules. Even just for flirting. I don’t CARE what Saturn did the last time it was in Libra. Let’s live in the NOW peeps.

What will the new Saturn in Libra dating paradigm involve?  Let’s develop the guidelines right now and just adhere to them in clean, Libra-on-a- -juice-fast and smelling of a light mist of narcissus style.

And what is it with the Exes? Well, in between now and Saturn getting out of Virgo on July 22, those valuable lessons-disguised as lovers type personae pop up again. Oh yes they do. And as Uranus hovers on the edge of Pisces again later in 2010, peeps from as far back as 2003 fly in to illustrate something or other profound to you.

But back to lovely NOW and devising the rules of the new Saturn In Libra Dating Paradigm:  What are they?

293 thoughts on “Saturn In Libra: A New Dating Paradigm?

  1. Thx MM. I will work on this over the weekend while cleaning up my Virgo challenged flat. If my ex would stop appearing in my dreams it would be a lot easier to let go but noooo Saturn still has her eyes on me and is testing testing testing – for f** leave me alone!! ( said Marlon Brando “Stellaaaaa” like wail)

    • PS thats my lovelife in the background of this pic – looking like a shipwreck.

    • Yes LG – go to sleep thinking about the far away French Kataka yet dream of my Scorp ex-hb – always sex lately. Not sure what that is about cause it ain’t what I’m wanting. We are at war over division of asset pool right now but amazingly getting on re children and anything other than money. He’s going to have Saturn over his Moon in Libra in the next 12 months too. Suffer is what first came to mind but i don’t wish him ill at all, hopefully he’ll evolve gracefully with the transit.

    • I know that sinking feeling MM after ‘connecting with the ex this afternoon.’
      it ok to sink only to see the sunshine above

  2. um, well, rule #1 for a libran narcissus juice fast is stock up on toilet tissue.

    #2 don’t plan on going anywhere far from the loo…

    #3 oh wait. rules for LOVE??

    that’s harder. um… i dunno. i am not good at it… well, invoking reciprocation anyway….

    rule #1 return all love.

  3. And here I have been wondering why all of a sudden this weeks my ex’s have been contacting me out of the blue. Now I know why…

  4. the new dating paradigm is:

    DONT get back with yr Ex’ thinking miraculously that THIS time it WILL work…… DONT even entertain the thought ….


    *steels self prepped for any Arian Charm radiating in this direction*

    • I hear you loud and clear RLP, especially if you have split twice during eclipses….

    • That should be tattoo’d or bumper stickered or screen saver’d or chanted RLP. Along with that sinking city in the background.

  5. Even with the strict understanding of “nothing but work” in June – up pops Aqua Man Ex…. just come out o-n-e night. Sure…
    New dating rules:
    1) I don’t need to talk to you every day
    2) I have work to do
    3) No helicopter management; I had other friends before I met you – and vice versa
    4) I like to laugh
    Bring it on and shove Saturn the hell out of here please

    • I’m with you on this one and in the words of India Arie “sometimes I shave my legs and sometimes I don’t”. Meaning I am amazing either way.
      Bring on that Libra love.

      • Literally…..why should I have to shave my legs just to please some ancient cultural and social paradigm when I bloody well have work to do and its a lot more important than trying to look ‘pretty’. Smashing old Libran notions?

  6. I have a long-term relationship semi-ending right now, so here’s hoping to GOD there is a positive shift in the dating paradigm. Ready to finally meet someone on my level…not more or less eff-ed up, successful, younger, older, etc.
    I just want perfection…that’s not too much to ask, right?

    • ha, surely not.

      though it prompts me to my own new rule – don’t get involved/infatuated with someone who is talking about leaving their partner as your adoration and attention is the crutch to prop up their flagging relationship, thus taking away the momentum they had to get up and leave their undeserving other half.

        • TNS Syndrome

          the ‘They’re NOT Single syndrome’ ?

          FINS – ‘Forget It, NOT Single’ syndrome?

          right up there with DWB – WWN
          ‘Didnt Work Before – Wont Work Now’!!

          • i’m a huge fan of DWB – WWN as I listen to Janis Joplin ” take another litltle bit of my heart baby” Love it!

        • the ‘almost single’ syndrome.

          that’d be ‘ass’ for short. them for trying it on and us for getting sucked in to it!

      • Jeez indigo. You must’ve had an experience that mirrored mine exactly! Mine occurred 2005 2006. When was yours?

  7. o hell – and here I am wrapped in a bubble of goo w my virgo-ex whilst he is in town for another week – he leaves to live in another country in Aug – am thinking ‘push nothing and enjoy the moments and see what happens Aug onward’ . . . yes? no? Also, does anyone have any thoughts on the fact that HE has Saturn in Taurus and I have Saturn in Virgo. Ie, each other’s sun signs. Is this a classic Saturnian Relationship or what? I’d hate it to cease with Saturn into Libra – it’s like we’re itching to just relax and enjoy and play with each other but no, all these BIG questions to contemplate first.

    AND how great a demo of Saturn is this: 2 years ago put myself onto public list for wisdom teeth removal. Thought that I had dropped off the list because of leaving the state. Today, the call comes through. Next Monday, I shall be wisdom-less! In the toothy way …


  8. Should we be Apply “The Art of War” Rules.
    Love is War!
    Or “Return to Love”
    Letting go of the Old Paradigm and using the Law of Attraction to Draw What is in Alignment for Us.
    Maybe Both. With Compassion!

  9. That is SO Libran! I love it. To be indecisive between the Art of War or Law of Attraction.

    So you think to yourself that you preparing for a long siege but that your enemy will crumble as his supply lines are weak and you are mighty: you will conquer but then what, you retire behind “battle lines” to visualise yourself as a glowing ball of nano particles, quarks, spirit and light, ready for love at all levels, ready to meet your soulmate?

  10. New dating paradigm, lol. I throw away my lasso/grappling hook, chloroform and handcuffs?

    None of my captives ever developed Stockholm syndrome. Bastards.

      • OMG I mean I actually gasped at some of this. OK I’m practising one of the techniques I’ve learned here today.

        I feel glum, yes, sad and unhappy when I see or hear really smart women backtrack to the 50s and reduce themselves to opinionless ornaments when looking for love. I feel as though what they will actually find is something else entirely. I feel as though there are ways to be less inflammatory – ie opinionated without being overbearing or unyielding – without potentially becoming an invertebrate fuck puppet. What do YOU think?

        Maybe I need to work on my delivery. Maybe I’m being too opinionated? Someone much smarter than me will be able to tell me. I might go find a man to help me work through this, they’re really big an smart an everything… you know? If I’m lucky I might get a pat on the head and an encouraging “Good Girl” once I’ve worked through it with them. Or maybe I just go hang with the smart men I know who are unthreatened by women with opinions and brains. Yeah, that sounds like more fun… what would YOU do?

        • LOL Or maybe I need to find a man to help me click where I actually meant to comment which is waaaahey down at the bottom where this was actually in context.

          • When love does grab you whatevs, all of your self righteous thinking goes out the window. It happened to me twice (they are very much alike but my husband is so much nicer) and you almost despise yourself for breaking your own rules of independence. But the upside is beautiful.

            I hope you experience it one day. It is soul changing.

            Go and find a smart man. Smarter than yourself for the intellectual challenge. It is fun bantering about in intelligent conversation with the added bonus of fabulous sex. Forget dickheads!

          • what I meant to say was all my lovers have said they find my take refreshing and how honest/upfront I am. It’s always backed with real love and compassion though, I find a lot of people try to be hard or badass but don’t know how to play it for real. true to self is never wrong, let them love you for it.

          • Pisces in CQ I wasn’t being self-righteous I was parodying TA’s comments below. If you think love is about living on mute and serving the needs of your mate whllst subjugating your own then all power to you.

            FYI I fell in love when Jupiter was last where it’s at now and have been living with and loving that same person ever since. It’s the best thing that ever happened to me in terms of interpersonal and as a by-product personal growth but it didn’t happen because I chose to play a cat and mouse game. It happened because I played no games at all. It was the opinions and brain that charmed him. I realise a lot of women find it hard to find the right balance when expressing opinions around men because they maybe didn’t grow up in environments where they were able to. And then they find it hard to disassociate any negative response from all the other negative responses they may have had from men in the past. All men are one man in their minds. It’s hard to find balance and see each moment as a new one. But you just have to learn how to balance it don’t you? Muting yourself entirely in order to find a mate seems dangerous – the minute the facade slips and you start being yourself the floodgates will open and the victim of the game won’t know what’s hit him. Being measured and using discretion until you know each other a bit better’s wise but I think pretending you’re someone you’re not isn’t. If a man wandered in here and suggested it he’d be hung drawn and quartered in a heartbeat.

            Thing is tho, yesterday i was shocked by TA’s suggestion. In retrospect I wonder if it’s being used as a way to temper the excitement felt when a man does show interest. That girlish excitement when all your thoughts tumble out at once. I can see that being a mother to many children on your own and then suddenly having someone to talk to one on one would make it hard to control oneself. And then if you hadn’t had a chance to work through father issues before you became a parent yourself you would probably be projecting as well. Suddenly having a grown up as opposed to kids to talk to would make it difficult to contain yourself verbally. That could get messy. Moon in virgo yesterday had me appalled (possibly a little self-righteous) by the suggestion of what I saw as a manipulative game but moon in libra has shone a light on maybe some of the reasons behind it and I can possibly see what she’s getting at now. Wouldn’t be my choice but good on her for trying something to change her patterns. We all do what we can. I would also like to use this moment apologise for the use of that hdeous derogatory term I used – Men use it to describe women who are empty of thought but good in the sack. Comfort woman would have been a less inflammatory term in retrospect.

        • true babes, but it’s the recognizing of this syndrome that is the first hurdle. then empowering your arse

          as a very opinionated scary tall thinking woman I have had all kinds of blah but I am beautiful in my own right and I dress funny with no desire whatsoever to impress “men”, impress my man, hell yes. but collectively

          works for me x

        • It seems I have offended you whatevs. I’m sorry about that.

          What I meant was when I said “and you almost despise yourself for breaking your own rules of independence”… was the startling almost physical need to be near someone when you have fallen in love. I found it a real battle to fight against and felt quite rediculous. I also loathe jealousy and have even had open relationships in my past but couldn’t be like that at all when I met my husband.

          I never live on mute. Maybe pause sometimes while I digest something intellectually, but never on mute.

          And I can never lump a group of people to be as one, let alone men.

  11. My new rules.

    1) Give away my heart LAST. Do sex, do dinner, do him falling for me FIRST…then let the feelings develop.

    2) Keep it about reality not hopes and wishes. Honesty, loyalty, kindness, civility, a sense of humour are non negotiables…..and farting, a bit too much weight, a past and baggage are standard parts of the deal.

    3) Be happy on my own, doing my own stuff, being me. Relationships don’t cure loneliness, anxiety, and won’t make me younger, slimmer, richer or more attractive….just give me company through my journey for some of the time.

    4) Still be prepared to try – but make sure those who have proven they love me (family and friends) are well maintained and feel loved in return, and have tissues, cups of tea, and ‘always thought you could do better’ statements in their support toolbox.

    Think that’s it for now.

    • Ah – you are lucky ML – I cannot do sex without giving away at least small slivers of my heart so sex sans lurv is a definite no no for moi. I do love your rule No. 4.

      • They are my NEW rules bluelibra….I’ve done unrequited…and hopelessly devoted because I haven’t been able to do sex without love for way too long. But a brilliant counsellor said to me “NO. The most precious part of you is your heart. Powerful women meet men as a lover first. Let them prove themselves in bed, in intention, in action…let them show you they are smart enough and have good taste enough to be coming back for more….THEN you can slowly hand over your heart. Hold on to your power. It’s not that you don’t feel sexual without being in love…it’s that you believe sex without love is wrong. It’s not. It gives you choice and power. Allow yourself that power.” So…I’m trying to try it! :-)

        • Oh my goodness, that is very good advice, I am going to try and keep that in mind from now on. Heart last, heart last, heart last. Perfect. Thank you for sharing that :)

      • Same for me bl. When Mystic asked us to see where Lust was in our charts I found that Amor is conjunct to my Lust. Explains a lot! It’s like sex, fastforward, love. But the opposite is true too. If the love is gone from the relationship so is the desire for sex.

    • Amen. This could well form the basis of it. I am writing it in my journal to remind me… next time.

    • These are really sensible.

      The number 1 is tricky, especially if the other party is emotionally unavailable dastard, blowing hot and cold, looking for a continuous supply of bed-activity. Do dinner, do fall and do sex, in this order works better for me.

      Number 2 should be hand written and be chanted every day. Decency-good intentions, kindness – is a must and should not be like scratch-type lottery cards – if you scratch hard enough, decency will be visible.

    • These are my new rules exactly, ML. Currently trying them out with a Gemini I’ve met. It’s going well so far. Good luck with yours!

    • love love love rule no. 1 ML. So have done that for the past 11 months and now att he eend of a torrid highly raunchy affair i am not broken hearted because I did not give it away! duh!

  12. 1. Lay salt across all entrances into your house.

    2. Detach and observe. (This is what my fantastic Tarot reader told me only yesterday.)

    3. Concentrate on looking after yourself first: eat well, sleep well, lay off the Chardy. Meditate.

    4. Enjoy the love already in your life.

    5. Focus on your own inner creativity, your work, your life. Enjoy who you are.

    6. Stay away from the sharks.

    7. Ask yourself, ‘Would this potential date be better than staying home and reading a really good book?’ Act accordingly.

    8. Or, as my Tarot reader AND MYSTIC have advised me, wait until spring.

    • Same bluelibra – can’t do sex without giving away part of my heart at least and the longer it goes on the more I give. Smelling right – love it – so true and so Libra.

    • bluelibra – all GREAT advice.

      I will add:

      9. set the standard; do not accept less than you really want. Tell him/her how you want things to go, what you expect from a relationship and don’t let the bar slip, no matter how cute, how great the sex, or how lonely you’ve been.

  13. Oh, and the all encompassing, do not pass go, Libran dating rule: Do NOT date anyone who doesn’t smell right. Universal Law that one.

    • Bluelibra, I am so with you there – that’s why I can’t date online. How do I know if I like them if I can’t smell them?

      • “lasso/grappling hook, chloroform and handcuffs” do tend to conjure up Silence of the Lambs, or such Uber.

        You might have better luck with champers, roses, chocolates…and dressing up the handcuffs with some pink feathers…. for the first date at least. ;-)

        • You’re right. I’ll lose the chloroform. They’re more fun when they’re conscious anyway.

      • speaking of Champers – where is she??

        CBA chime in if yr out there on the ‘read only’ peripheral…!!

      • this is weird – wanted to :lol: last night and both laptop and iphone woulldnt let me. and why?? see if this loads

          • oh it works now – too late but i was loling at UV of course! Q why was i able to comment on other comments???? hmmm weird

    • which is another reason to get off the the Pill ladies! it messes with your sense of smell & thus the men you are attracted to! (plus sex is even better off the pill…)

  14. I think we could apply one of the Ariean rules here:

    Do not engage with anyone who doesn’t treat you with respect.

    That is my number 1 for dating and relationships!

  15. Feel it people … dont think about anything! simply FEEL , from the heart. Close your eyes , hold your dates hand and feel the love (smell it also) Use the other senses besides the eyes (the two thieves) Or your mind (the devil). If your feelin it go for it ! if your not feelin it . Thanks anyway nice to meet you… later! Hey im a freakin relationship expert now giving advice and no one even asked for it!….. Hi Prowlin ;) all good davidl

    • Oh Damons, I have too much oxytocin pumping to run purely on feeling. I have to consciously engage the brain or DISASTER looms. But feeling & thinking aren’t mutually exclusive, thank goodness.

    • Sorry dams but that theory gets me into trouble everytime . I constantley ‘feel’ and dream about an ex but he is not with me. It is all imagination mostly but real every now and then. WTF?
      We agree not to communicate . So wish me luck

    • NEw paradigm includes- DONT just go for the feeling. Ends up in co-dependant childish ‘whimsical’ relationships that have no basis in reality and just serve to prop up each person’s gross neutrotic habits and mental/emotional problems.
      REAL communication is ebat by nothing. REAL respect. Living with someone and having every single one of your boundaries trampled on and shat on and being ignored, treated like dirt= I DESERVE HIGHER STANDARDS. And shall make better choices according to REALITY

  16. oooh.

    well I have met yet another Impossible Guy. In the laundromat, of all places. I have dubbed him Laundromat Guy as his real name is the same as “the one that got away” (had two of them actually, same name)…

    so he is leaving town PLUS ‘suddenly began relationship with a good friend’ within hours of meeting ME (which makes me think: opportunistic sex with said good friend).

    oh dear.

    but HE wants to ‘connect’ with me anyway.

    which I agreed to – but only in order to practice ‘setting the standard’ (i.e this guy is going to know I am a lovely, open, honest woman who will not get romantically entangled with him)

    as well as practice ‘heart to heart connection’ a la Voice Dialogue – which is basically about communicating as a woman and allowing him to communicate as male (which involves checking in with feelings rather than spouting forth opinions – opinions are somewhat alienating apparently).

    I’ve been trying it on all the men I know. Works a treat. Also been observing interactions where the woman is putting forth her opinions and seeing how quickly these conversations become conflict laden.

    Of course I am still going to have opinions, but I phrase them in terms of ‘feeling messages’ and state what I WANT.

    Like I said, it really works. Its also fun.

    The Real Artist and I (she is the one who dated DLE, now known as Thing One) joke about batting our lashes and feeling pretty, but know it is the way to go, to get a Real Man. Consider it an Art of Seduction.

    speaking of Art – I have 12 framed drawings up for auction at the Graham F Smith Peace Trust Annual Fundraising Dinner on the 26th.

    I shall update you on the success of both events (connecting with Laudromat Guy and Art Auction)

  17. oooh.

    well I have met yet another Impossible Guy. In the laundromat, of all places. I have dubbed him Laundromat Guy as his real name is the same as “the one that got away” (had two of them actually, same name)…

    so he is leaving town PLUS ‘suddenly began relationship with a good friend’ within hours of meeting ME (which makes me think: opportunistic sex with said good friend).

    oh dear.

    but HE wants to ‘connect’ with me anyway.

    which I agreed to – but only in order to practice ‘setting the standard’ (i.e this guy is going to know I am a lovely, open, honest woman who will not get romantically entangled with him)

    as well as practice ‘heart to heart connection’ a la Voice Dialogue – which is basically about communicating as a woman and allowing him to communicate as male (which involves checking in with feelings rather than spouting forth opinions – opinions are somewhat alienating apparently).

    I’ve been trying it on all the men I know. Works a treat. Also been observing interactions where the woman is putting forth her opinions and seeing how quickly these conversations become conflict laden.

    Of course I am still going to have opinions, but I phrase them in terms of ‘feeling messages’ and state what I WANT.

    Like I said, it really works. Its also fun.

    The Real Artist and I (she is the one who dated DLE, now known as Thing One) joke about batting our lashes and feeling pretty, but know it is the way to go, to get a Real Man. Consider it an Art of Seduction.

    speaking of Art – I have 12 framed drawings up for auction at the Graham F Smith Peace Trust Annual Fundraising Dinner on the 26th.

    I shall update you on the success of both events (connecting with Laundromat Guy and Art Auction)

    • taurean alchemist…this post disturbs me! how does one frame the opinion ‘bp is run by evil bastards ‘ (for instance) as a ‘feeling statement’? that ‘i feel they are bastards?’ and what is a ‘real’ man? Don Draper…? eeek!

      the men who i have loved and respected the most and vice versa have all said to me that they love women who have a brain and show it, rather than just talking about feelings…
      it all sounds very ‘The Rules’….

      • Hehehe saggigal, I was about to ask the same thing about framing opinion as a ‘feeling statement’! :lol:

        • Saggigal, you made me think of the great old Harry Enfield sketch: ‘Women, Know Your Limits’. Googling it will bring great joy!

      • saggigal – I can say ‘bp is run by evil bastards’ – but to a friend and not a date.

        but if I were to say it as a feeling message –

        ” I feel really concerned about the BP situation. I don’t want to see this crisis happening again. What do YOU think?”

        I have a brain and show it – I just show it in ways that are non inflammatory.

        Try it before you knock it down.

        Its not ‘The Rules’ but a tried and tested psychological technique which works for some of us who have forgotten how to communicate and honour ourselves as women.

    • I’m going to be a total bitch and maybe this will reflect on my current state but what are you thinking? Don’t put yourself in that position of being the ‘other woman’ the one he can run to ‘on the side’ so he doesn’t have to face up to problems in the relationship with the other ‘good friend’. Go for someone who meets you on your level. You shouldn’t have to tiptoe around and gloss over the communication so that you can ‘get in there’. I have done the same thing and when it comes down to it it is a deep seated fear that is probably conditioned in all women that we have to ‘fit in’ with a man, and edit parts of ourselves out.
      It’s bullshit (sorry this isnt a personal attack).
      I am so sick of having to be this ‘pretty little thing’ all the time just so men will accept me. The men around me and who ive been with have never come to me ive realised. they dont treat me with respect. They only respond to the ‘people-pleaser’ persona that I have put on because for some reason I thought thats what you had to do to get a man. Not consciously of course. But its all about the woman giving and giving and giving and being taken advantage of. Men can get away with sh*itloads and its apparently acceptable.
      Even f*cking housework!!!! Saturn in Virgo is SCREAMING at the guy im living with to do his f*cking dishes and yet it still doesnt get done.
      Even after I politely ask numerous times for him to clean it up because I dont want to live in mess, i dont want to have to find an extra 30 mins to clean his crap up whenever i want people to come over, i dont want to have to clean a dish every morning and clear a space just to make breakfast.

      EVERYTHING is bullshiz at the moment….sorry.

  18. Which website do i go to for information on Voice Dialogue? I have shocking tendency to spout opinions, gossip, jokes – like i am performing on radio – when i talk to men i fancy. But what do you do? Just shut up and smile?

    • you can’t – it’s a fire sign trait. Having Merc in Leo my flirting trait is tell objects of potential affection about how fabulous my latest biz/geek extravaganza is going and Sagg moon gets all me all fiesty too. I’ll have to wait until the next life when there’s more discriminating and judicial natal aspects to my chart like a ~keep it quiet~ Cap Asc with a ~die rather than expose oneself~ Scorp moon.

      • Agreed! I have two of those “quiet”signs (Scorp sun, Cap Asc) but have a Sagg moon and i simply cannot shut the fuq up! Especially if i’ve had a few drinks! Opinionated and feisty as!

        • You are a Leo LS so you a are meant to roar but remember more people will love you than hate you always.

        • I have a Scorp Moon but the Leo Sun (and Gem Asc) make shutting up a unique occasion for me. Add a drink and it’s pretty much an impossibility. I have to blog to get rid of some of my excess verbosity! :)

      • i too have merc in leo PC. we should have our own blog so we can alk the same language. have you spent your whole with people looking at you with a wtf look on their face?

        • ummm … they certainly get “some sort of look” on their face … not sure whether it’s wtf or stunned or vaguely terrified.

          To be honest I’ve spent YEARS honing my life so that the people close to me actually appreciate me for who I am and more often than not are interested and/or amused by what I have to say. In order to achieve that I’ve had to accept myself for whom I am and go “it’s ok to be a bit out there … there’s plenty of room on this planet for people who are a bit left of centre. I don’t have to conform.”

          That being said I’ve also had to learn the value of an apology and when to tone it down and when to just pull my head in as having so much fire in my chart there’s a tendancy to just freakin go ORF! lol

    • I knew a girl who was like a Seinfeld episode walking. I really enjoyed her for the first day. But then, it was kind of like the radio and I just wanted to turn her voice box off. The thing that really was unsettling wasn’t the joking, it was more that she was performing all the time and wasn’t being herself. I wanted to know about her in her ‘real’ voice!

      I don’t think we talkers need to shut up, but I do think we need to be sensitive to putting on an act and treating people like an audience. But it is so much fun to let fly… have you ever tried stand-up LS? Maybe you need to get it out of your system – you might be hugely successful!!

    • and anyway .. what’s wrong with spouting opinions, gossip and jokes?? Just make sure you don’t become a daily expose a la Fifi Box and anything over 20 pairs of shoes is NOT OK AND MUST BE DONATED TO A NOTEWORTHY CHARITY!


      • yep, women who laugh, have an opinion, are passionate, say what they think…trust me, men – the right men- love it. no one wants a smiling nodding doll. Being a real woman- as in authentically, beautifully you – is far more important than finding the elusive ‘real man’!!

        its like that thing that real men like curves. well real men also like a brain and to be best friends with their lover.

        • I totally agree, Saggigal, that people (and not just men) respond to what comes authentically. The technique I describe, which you are so quick to dismiss, is all about checking in with what feels more authentic and not responding from a place of conditioning/ego/damage (which is so often not in the least convincing to anyone).

          In Jung’s writings on Anima and Animus it is clear that the Anima (Soul) is the part of a man he projects outward onto a woman. Thus it is a woman who is in touch with her feelings that draws a man within himself to connect with his own heart/soul.

          Likewise, Animus (Spirit) is the part of a woman that is projected onto the man/men in her life. It is, needless to say, a lot easier for a woman to access Spirit than it is for a man to access Soul.

          In fact (and this isn’t to belittle men) women are far more likely to grow psychologically than men – and men NEED women to show them how to. In order to do that, a woman who is being courted by a man only has to get in touch with her truest feelings – connect with her own heart center – express these – and a man will follow (if he is capable). Asking a man what he thinks is asking him to respond as a man.

          I haven’t just read some pop-psych book (such as The Rules) – I am being grounded in psych theory and also undergoing therapy with a qualified psychotherapist.

          And as you can see, I have not lost my ability to tell anyone what I THINK.

          • hey TA, hmm, i just have a very different take. And its not dismissive, as i know of such theories and don’t like them.

            I have no problem whatsoever with true heart-centred communication- ie, no ego, no ‘role’, but in fact the kind of stuff you’re talking about actually screams ‘play a role’. Why is saying what you think to a man considered inflammatory? Only if they fundamentally disagree- and then maybe its good to know now rather than later?

            And i studied and was engaged in Jungian analysis for 5 years…so let’s take it from that perspective. The way i was taught about Jung was certainly *not* that men need women to help them grow, now that women are closer to spirit, and indeed, definitely not that to ask a man what he ‘thinks’ is asking him to respond as a ‘man’. (that seems a very reactionary interpretation of Jung)

            In fact all my jungian work was about dissolving these false binaries and getting people to take responsibility for the anima/animus inside of themselves.
            Yes, men project onto women, but the whole point is not to buy into that projection by becoming some kind of psychological/spiritual muse/guide for them. The same goes for women who project their strength and capacity onto a man. These things must be resolved within us, not outside, so the game you’re playing seems a way to have the other person engage sis to manipulate that projection. ‘yeah honey you’re right, i do feel more than you, tell me what you think so you feel like a real man’.

            The first step for men who undergo jungian analysis (in my experience) is disillusioning themselves to the notion that this spiritual/feeling-ness is in women and not in them, and to stop hiding behind ‘thinking’ as their habitual way of relating to women.

            If it works for you TA then all the best! seriously. i know you are studying and not just reading pop psych. But i disagree with your take on Jung, and the basis tenets of the dialogue theory you’re talking about… Ill stick to dissolving projections and dealing with men who are capable of dissolving theirs, not playing to them.

          • TA, are you sure you’re not laying down as a doormat in the ‘making a good impression stage’? When do you allow yourself to actually emerge?

          • Sorry TA, I’m late coming in, but I totally agree with Saggigal on this.

            First of all, I don’t easily separate my opinions from my feelings, and I’m not convinced men do either. Rationalists just like to think they do. And I’m not about to change the way I interact, which works perfectly well for me in my family and professional relationships, friendships etc, just to make a date feel more comfortable (powerful?) It reeks of linguistic shenanigans, where a woman has to pretend to be less intelligent in order to hook a man. Opinion and intelligence are not counter to femininity. That’s the oldest patriarchal falsehood in the book.

            Unfortunately, this is the trend in dating manuals, though, where women are constantly blamed for the breakdown of relationships and pressured, if not to take responsibility for mens’ emotional ineptitude, to compensate for it. While the much smaller market for men’s dating manuals seems to specialize in linguistic trickery, bamboozling women (The Game) into bed with unevolved males. Both these trends denigrate men and women and are a poor basis for sustaining a relationship based on authenticity and acceptance.

            Relationships that work, regardless of the type, are the ones where there is respect for the whole person, including their feelings, opinions and imperfections. The people who love me, love me just as much when I’m strident, angry, irritable, low or wrong.

          • agreed Uber … I would rather have the unconditional love of one person than the conditional love of a 1000. To be free to be oneself in a relationship and valued for it, whether it’s romantic or platonic is something to be cherished!

          • people… I feel tired, I feel irritated. I feel unsupported. I feel unheard. I only wanted to come to a safe place and express something of what I’m experiencing and trying out right now.

            The alchemists have a saying “according to your system of belief, you are right”.

            I don’t come along here and tell anyone that their way is wrong.

            I don’t come along here asking for a debate on whether or not a theory I am testing out is right or wrong.

            I don’t want to express myself here and then put up my defenses just in case someone here doesn’t agree with me.

          • TA, no one said you’re wrong. We just disagree. And we’re only expressing our views as free thinkers do in most social situations in the free world. I’d be highly suspicious of any social situation or public space where you could say stuff and have it greeted with unanimous congratulations and hugs. If you’re looking for a safe place to express yourself and receive unconditional support, I wouldn’t recommend the internet.

          • thanks for the recommendation Uber Virgo.

            I won’t come back to this blog again.

            Taurean Alchemist out.

  19. Well my Aires ex just came swoosing back into my life and left again faster than a speeding ram. Hoping this was the last time because I’m powerless to resist and I don’t think I can cope with having my heart broken by him for the 8 millionth time. I’m going to have Saturn hovering around my Venus, Jupiter and natal Saturn (return) for the next couple of years, joy. I’m exhausted by relationship lessons, put off the whole thing quite frankly so my new dating regime will be to up the Scorpio ante, take no prisoners, of you’re not strong enough to cope I’m not interested!

    • That is exactly what happend to me too Charley. They re so ruthless but i never gave him my heart, would never trust him with it, so altho it has been painful at times I can still cope when he comes to call. However we’ve agreed not to contact each other now, he is strong enuf to do that but I have to work at it and fight myself all the way.
      I’ll have to reward myself after each week. I’ve never gone for more then 4 weeks in over 11 months.
      Wish me all the Leo strength in the entire universe. With leo/scorp/and Libra all over my chart you can see why i have to work hard.

    • ah yes, my aries ex decided to ask me to elope & run away to the blue mountains with him over the weekend, where he would work in a piano store or some bollocks. am thoroughly annoyed with him because I thought we’d become friends again (HA! which really is just a joke…the truth is we can’t stay away from each other) & although he didn’t even come close this time, if he really wanted to he could break-up my current, loving, happy relationship. Although I am absolutely besotted with my partner, this aries-ex still enters my head almost every day & it ended with him 4 years ago! I haven’t even kissed him since…we’re like magnets..or a drug addiction. But this time around made me realise I really don’t want to be with him again…at least not yet, maybe when we are much older & he’s sorted himself out more. & that would be presuming I was also single, I would never forgive him if he deliberately caused me harm again.
      THAT should be a rule – DO NO HARM.

  20. Yep Im in for saturn lessons too Charley… He is just moving past my mars/plu conj in virgo (6th) where he has been for AGES and next hits my uranus and merc in 6th, crosses my Desc and into 7th then tromps over my sun, jupiter, venus and neptune all in 7th. Not till he gets to Sag that I am done.

    RE love life… gah I am STILL getting over my Aqua ex from 8 months ago and latest setback is he seems to have met someone else around 6 weeks ago cos dating profile which I was stalking disappeared. Worried he will treat her better thanks to me dumping his ass. Have I done the work for some other female to benefit?? Jealousy is eating me up and twisting my insides. Want to text him how I hate him but that would look funny 8 months later and for no apparent reason…lol

    Instead I last night visualised cutting the cord betwen our souls after reading an email about it. Dont think its worked in my case tho, or why would I be on here today still writing about him?

    On a more positive note my Braziian Sagi Ex who was soooo much better than him anyway called me from brazil few weeks ago and said he was coming back to the uk cos he misses it / me. That would be nice… he was the best so far

    Other than that I shall carry on the way I have been this year. No online dating (ick) but getting out to enjoy myself, developing hobbies and trying re career plans. Wonderful daughters that need me. Working on getting some new friends to replace all the ones I have dumped.

    Onwards and upwards…. im taking no shit from now on…

    Just call me ‘Saturn Girl’.

    • no he will repeat the same old shite with someone else.traci they will not change him. same shite differnet person. Do you change when you’re with someone else no! online dating is hard work goota have a break and be your seldf for yourself not jsut a ‘profile’.
      lots of love

  21. No ex’s showing up, fortunately. New paradigm for this Gem Sun + Pisces rising:

    (1) Boundaries – what is acceptable and what is not

    (2) My needs are as important as yours, don’t let me say “thanks for my significant other/partner for giving me the opportunity to be strong”

    (3) Relationships are not relation-shops.

    (4) Two-lane emotional security and respect for the long run. Be friends first.

    I am sure there will be more, and these will be re-written since Saturn will spend a long time in Libra.

    Until July 22, nose to grind stone, work and work.

  22. I am too buggered from Saturn in Virgo blasting away at my experiences with the other sex to even contemplate a way forward, God, it does soound nice though!

  23. I had an ex blast this arvy exactly when i should’ve been in yoga i was ‘ ‘connecting” with the ex but we got to talk and we both agreed it is a struggle and we know how it is. We agreed not to contact each other – wish me luck. He is so yummmmmyy!

    • I cut contact with a potential on and off relation, two months ago, it was an uphill struggle. Some days will be difficult but whenever the going gets though, you will remember what a tummy ache it was.

      Wishing you luck for the new doors to open soon, since as soon as your heart, mind and aura clear of any imprints of the ex, these new opportunities will arrive.

      • thx quad for your kind words. ive chopped and chopped for many months and now down to a thin wisp of connection that i accept will never disapear and that ok.

  24. Oh Hell, I fall in love so seldom that when it actually happens, I feel rather helpless in the face of it.

    1. Most important rule: the better you feel about yourself (i.e. doing the one thing you know is MOST important to your bliss & life path), the better your emotional balance in any relationship.

    2. In tandem with that, if you are in a massive obsession cycle concerning your beloved, distract yourself by doing something which REALLY scares you but which you really want to do.
    Nothing like a little constructive terror to rewire your brain. (Avoid seriously dangerous things, though – you’re not exactly at your most self-preserving right now. Think *constructive* and *exciting*.)

    3. Don’t bore your friends with endless recitations of every detail of your unhappy love. They don’t want to hear all that (no matter how much they adore you) – it’s depressing & like watching a gerbil stuck on a wheel.
    If you must recount every detail, do it in your journal – let your friends bring a little oxygen into your life (i.e. thoughts that don’t concern your obsession).

    4. Exercise. Not because it will make your beloved love you more – you have no control over that (really) – do it because it makes you healthy & clears your head. And the more attractive/healthy you feel, the less needy you will be.

    5. If you’re suffering from depression, do something about it. You’d be surprised at how much easier it is to let go of an unhealthy ex when you’re not fighting your own brain chemistry. If you need anti-depressants, exercise, meditation, positive affirmations, therapy, thyroid meds or an anti-allergy diet, do it – what matters is that it REALLY works.

    6. If your ex is abusive, STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM HIM/HER. No exceptions.
    Exercise extreme willpower – someday you will thank yourself (and if you have children, believe me they will be grateful too).

    7. If you didn’t get what you needed before, you probably aren’t going to get it from your ex now – most people don’t change that much. If they have changed, it’s usually evident immediately – you don’t have to search for it like an emotional archaeologist.

    8. If you keep attracting the same dysfunctional type into your life, focus on changing yourself – not the people around you. Who you are determines who you attract.

    Wow, I didn’t realize I had so many rules at the ready. Wish me luck following them. :)

    • O-i-L you are brilliant! Fab advice. I’m tuning into the Libby fleurs for sage advice for next x number of months (while Saturn challenges Librans). And good luck Odette-in-Libra in following ur own advice!

    • Attracting the dysfunctional over and over again – very true.

      Following Mystic’s advice I spent the last December Eclipse making a time line of important relations (personal, business) since 1994, an eye opener. I would definitely suggest the practice, write down the first words about the relationship and the pattern shows crystal clear.

      Now following my own bliss. :)

    • fluidfeline, many thanks. :)
      Quadrupled, good idea – knowing patterns makes one feel more in control – when you can see them coming & identify them, it’s like naming dragons – you know how to fight them (should they need fighting).

  25. My number one Rule Do Not have with an Ex.

  26. Why are none of the men who fall in love with me actually really totally available. What is this about? And why do i think I;m the warrior woman and i can do it al myself.

    After 6 years of being a single mum and doing it all myself, here’s my paradigm shift : I can use your help, man of my dreams. I like that you can be stronger than me, that you can fix my car, that you can give your opinion on my life, that you can love my child. I will stop being the warrior woman caus it’s served its purpose now, and I’ve proved that I can live on Mars without help if need be. Now I’d like someone to look after and to look after me. i want to wake up next to a man.

    Weird? Weird for me. But true. I am sick of being alone, and I have a lot to give the right person. Where is that person?

    • See this IS love you’re talking about – reciprocity and allowing each other to be good at the things you’re good at and loving each other for your strengths and weaknesses. It takes an awesome woman to realise when the warrior’s cloak is ready to be hung up and not swing so far in the other direction that you become a doormat. I hope to god and goddess you are able to draw your opposite and equal to you seabird – you sound so totally ready and ripe for it. Good luck on your quest.

  27. Seabird… You answered your own question. Like attracts like… Think about it. I have the same problem after raising my 3 girls for a good many years. They’re nearly grown now and effectively it’s now easy for me

    I have worked out that I attract the emotionally unavailable man cos thats what I am. You CAN do it all yourself, you’ve mastered it by now and though it doesn’t become much easier to be coping on your own you know you can deal with it.

    How to become vulnerable again and even a little (eek) needy… The thing we are all ‘supposed’ to avoid being at all costs is ironically the one thing we need to display.

    Take down the walls one brick at a time…And remember he IS out there waiting to meet you too xx

    • You know, you’re right. An older friend of mine, a gorgeous frenchwoman who has been pretty much alone for the past 16 years, said to me a couple of years ago to beware of this. She told me that her 16-year-old son had said “Mum, you don’t need a man, you do everything yourself.” And she said thanks, but inside she was crying – I do need a man, I do. And she kept getting these *unavailable* guys. I didn’t think about it before. maybe I need to. You do get what you give.

  28. i was so glib…. and then the aquaman emails. karma is such a biotch. (granted, glamourous and endearing when the messanger is YOU ms. m)

    ok, so upon re-thought:

    all love beings within.

    so rule #1 : love yourself. for everything is merely a reflection of the universe… and therefore when you love yourself, you are loving everything.

    and i bought enough TP for all of us.

    • Okay and so I went and saw ~Prince of Persia~ this afternoon….Boy, them Persian sure had some interesting English accents going on…lol

      Overall, “Eh” is all I can say. Much enjoyed Robin Hood more a couple of weeks ago.

      • You’re working through your romance sitch with neptune as a conduit sweets? It’s one of the things I like most about astro – it can manifest in whatever form we choose to take it in.

  29. Mystic- girl what are you doing? step away from the aqua! x

    My ex scenario is condensed to one since I move everywhere to often and try not to keep them in one spot. I manage it as well as I can. It ranges from serious heartache out of the blue bolts of pain unresolved pockets of letting go to completely fine and I am moving on how the fuck were we ever a couple? omg type thing. It has been the pandora’s box of ex episodes for me. I miss being as close as we were but not the relationship. safe.
    But, watching the super crabs ex a thon has been like an episode of flight of the concords- ala carol brown. Went to a party last week and he was trapped with 5 in a room one more recently departed who lied about her feelings and got hurt now is on warpath (astro unknown)
    every bit of astro warning has been like a play I am watching in his life.
    zap much?

  30. My rules:

    1 Men aren’t stupid and neither are you.
    2 Games don’t work in love – someone always loses.
    3 Projections are what causes most of the problems – sort out your shit – other people can shine a light but you have to walk that path solo.
    4 Never settle.
    5 Casual dalliances for fun only if all parties are aware that’s what it is.
    6 Never make it your mission to “bring out” someone else’s potential. Accept who they are and give them room and support to grow – if they don’t reciprocate get out fast.
    7 Don’t do to anyone else what you wouldn’t want done to you.

    Seven being saturn’s number is where the rules stop.

  31. Wow so much wisdom and cool concepts in here. I love it. One dinner/drinks with the Uranian was enough to see that he is not good for me and i ain’t going back there. I actually had just had acupuncture so was readily able to note what he was doing with my Qi and he was scattering it. Not good. And, ahem, emotional archeology? For SURE. Plus i was actually BORED. He still a good kisser though, lol. I think he meandered back into my life as some sort of signpost. The scary thing is that a v.immature part of me was just thinking i should keep him around to “prove” that i can pull an extremely hot man and for the sex. But no-no-no.

    • Cool, a signpost to see how far you have come!! I love when that happens..thx for e book babe…yay

    • glad to hear it!! xxxxx

      ego gratification is always nice but some games cost more than playing.
      as we know

      lol bored is not a good sign
      funny ever since I ended my uranus square asc, aqua ex lover bores me to death. just talking to him (type he is london) I can hear my inner dialog going, oh god you are still there in that distance is cool control loop. yawn
      more proof some people are transits or squares

    • mystic, you rock. we’ve all been there- wanting to ‘prove’ we can resist/use charms etc of the ex, without falling into old paradigm. i think uranian def popped up to just show you how far you’d come. X

  32. Over it.

    My new dating rules when Saturn enters Libra in my 5th house

    #1 Do not ask anyone out. Let them do the asking.

    #2 Do not sleep with them until you know they are for real.

    #3 Stick with your values and don’t give in.

    #4 Be realistic about it. Yes he maybe hot, great kisser et al, but he is unemployed, living at his parents house. no no!!

    • ‘#4 Be realistic about it. Yes he maybe hot, great kisser et al, but he is unemployed, living at his parents house. no no!!’

      Love it Sassy!

      And thank you for your honesty Mystic. Hugs and strengthening vibes to you always!

    • as i just get to the end of saturn in my 5th (virgo) i can say- sassy YES! these are Exactly the lessons/rules of that transit. you’ll kick arse with those guidelines. xxx

      • Yay, good saggigal. How did you go with that transit? xx

        It is all very proper, as i got a taste of it back at the start of the year.

        • …i got separated then divorced sass :)
          it was all about getting serious and internally mature about relationships, losing the romantic illusions, and integrating the parts of myself that were creative and real. I did not pay attention to any warning signs, i threw myself in, which i do not regret one iota as love him deeply (still) but it was young girl love, not woman love. i made excuses for his behaviour, i rushed in, i got married in a whirlwind. all very passionate, soul-matey. and it wasnt *real*- as in, it wasnt sustainable. (not that the love wasnt real, it was…making sense??)

          anyway a verrry long process of extracting myself from this codependent mess (as it became) took serious therapy and a removal of the idea that i could inspire him to ‘be better’ (ie, not yell at me, sulk, throw tantrums…etc. yep, nice). He put all of his stuff, whether the good (‘you are my saviour, you teach me how to feel’) to the bad (‘you’re the reason everything is shit right now’). Hence my strong disillusionment about TA’s interpretation of jung being about women needing to help men tap into their spiritual sides etc.

          anyway, it was hardcore, but it was also my saturn return so i got a double whammy. and i was very resistant to the lessons, so it was more drawn out and excruciating in the process. i’m sure you will not be as stubborn as i was about the truth!

          but yep realism is GOOD, it is awesome, it is where the true intimacy is, its the saturn version of romance and everything else the 5th house offers :)


          • Wow, that is huge transformation there saggigal!! Good on you…can totally relate to your story as I was married young ( was in love, soul mate et al) but just didnt work out..I felt like he couldnt see me, the real me.
            We are on good terms now, but it took us a while to get there, as we have child together so very important. I still love him and I think you always do. I can look back on what he has taught me and be happy and not bitter or angry anymore. Seems you are at that stage too, which is very great. My divorce went through the start of this year and I still have not had my Saturn return yet, another 2 yrs.

            I cant believe that I am going through all of this when im still so young. I blame the scorp in my chart and pluto in 5th house. I either do it all the way or dont!! Very extreme

            Yes a double whammy for you jeeze. It seems that you have really come out the other side though and yes it makes you stronger. Thanks for sharing your experience of saturn in 5th to me. xxx hugs to you

            Yes looking forward to Saturns lessons…Good luck with him in your 6th!!! xxx

          • I’m back because Mystic emailed me…

            Saggigal I don’t like being misquoted. I did NOT say women NEED to help men. It is the other way around, and not always SO as there are plenty of men who are psychologically mature and capable of navigating their own soul/inner landscape.

            and the Anima/Animus it is not MY interpretation of Jung but what I am being taught at Ikon Institute of South Australia, by a fully qualified psychotherapist and Doctorate candidate.

            Five years of therapy or not, surely you know that the goal is for a flexible and permeable ego that allows new ideas in and embraces another’s system of belief. This is the goal of alchemy too.

            We all take it for granted that we know what it is to be feminine. I do not. I was raised by an angry feminist that I do not wish to emulate. I’m the mother of five daughters and wish to set a better example for them.

            So if I say I am attempting to get in touch with my heart center and to communicate from there (when in the company of a man), to hold back on opinions (which are masculine in nature whether you like it or not) – then it is because of all these things.

            Part of this method I’m using is about holding all my energy to myself and not pushing it toward another – all that ‘helping’ and ‘saving’ is masculine and pushes men away, but aside from that the goal is to truly expend all that loving energy on myself so that I FEEL GOOD.

            I do not want to ‘debate’ about this. I only wanted to explain my position.

            meanwhile, I am raising five children on my own, being taken to family court by the man who has withheld financial support and given me nothing but opposition for 7 years. I’m working full time and attempting to make a name for myself as a writer and artist. I have no energy for criticism or being treated like an idiot (thanks Uber Virgo).

            oh and the date with Laundromat Guy was, as I predicted, nothing but an opportunity to practice relating. It was fun but I won’t see him again.He is definitely into me, but not relationship oriented. I opt out of this one.

          • Thank you sass!!

            and TA, lets cease this, eh? As with any theory there are different interpretations, and i was taught by someone high up in the Australian jungian analysts hierarchy too. Someone who teaches internationally and is part of the group who certifies that Jung is being taught in a particular way.

            With any theory (feminism, socialism, whatever, take your pick) there are books upon books written with people expressing different takes on them. my position is as valid as yours, and just as informed. and disagreeing is not a bad thing.

            and, for the record, no i was never taught that opinion is inherently masculine; in fact, as i stated earlier, the way i was taught was that the goal is integration of the masculine and feminine inside all of us, not the negation of one to fulfill a particular archetype.

            but agree to disagree, there are bigger things going on in the world than how you choose to relate to men, so whatever works TA.i’ll stick to my way, you to yours.

          • saggigal,

            As far as I’m concerned, I don’t disagree with you at all – but I don’t like being misquoted and I don’t appreciate being belittled (but that wasn’t you was it?). (and if you’re going to keep referring to me why act as though I am the one keeping something going?)

            This whole thing shows me that opinions aren’t safe territory at all – even amongst friends.

          • TA, I just found this.

            Nothing I said about your statements was unkind, and I did not treat you like an idiot. I don’t think you’re an idiot. I still disagree with your statements about opinions, and that way of relating in general, but so what? I disagree with friends frequently and they disagree with me. No damage done.

            I will say, if you’re planning to make a career as a writer/artist, and make statements in the public sphere, if you’re not prepared to defend your stance (which I think is unwise), then you can’t afford to be derailed at the first sign of opposition. Nor is it wise to attempt to shut down healthy debate, discussion and dialogue. You’ll only damage yourself. Joe public and Josephine Critic are a lot more vicious than we are here. If you are planning on a public life, you need to be a lot tougher, and you’re better off hearing this from someone who cares about you.

    • yes know that one still living off his parents. Doen’st show a lot of maturing and emy x was a pot head duh but the best kisser etc ever ever. Why is that the bad boys are the best at xxx?

  33. So ive already met Mr Player, Mr Bullshit, Mr Fuckabout, Mr Jealous, Mr Ego & Mr Stress… Its about time… Ive finally found Mr Right!!

    I met my ex boxing day 2003 & although we didn’t get together until mid 2004 I still remember my first thought when we did…….

    ‘I don’t know what this is but I will go with it, I will learn something from this relationship’

    …..& BOY DID I EVER!

    No seriously, I have already learnt something! If I don’t know what it is the best option is NOT to find out……

  34. Your freeking me out MM!!
    Ex from 2000-03 is back telling me how lovely I am…
    Did you ever get my email?

  35. Relationship Rule no. 1 , there are no rules
    Rule no. 2 , rules were meant to be broken
    Rule no. 3, rules create guilt
    Rule no. 4, there is not 1 special ‘soul mate’, grow up.

    Question no. 1, why do women love to set rules ?
    Question no. 2, why do women look for a soul mate instead of someone who they can love and live with ?
    Question no. 3, why do women love to lists of ‘parameters’ for the elusive soul mate and never notice them standing right in front of them because they have bad shoes ?

    Note to above: I was unemployed and living with my parents when I met my wife. (just happened to have moved back to Sydney and was still getting my shit together).If she had knocked me back on that basis we both would have missed out on 3 kids a happy home and a steady loving , growing relationship.

    Girls, sorry, most of you have no idea.

    • I was that girl, now I have to say that (dammit!) sorry but davidl is right…

        • Ha ha mr. d. i don’t mean to sound smug either though I was not accused. I needed a reality check (or three) and some guidance, maybe even some rules, as I was burnt and nearly lost faith in myself in the process of loving. I suppose what I am agreeing with in what you said davidl, is just to let love in and not get too complicated about it. It’s a tender little package and it can be crushed by self-absorption, even if it is protective in origin.
          My hub-to-be was living at home when we met. I nearly wrote him off as he didn’t fit my preconceived idea of ‘the perfect guy’ for me, it was touch and go, I would hate someone to make my mistake and see it through is all.

    • Oh davidl – I am glad that you are in a loving relationship. When I met my ex-husband he was unemployed and I worked for the first two years of our relationship while he sorted himself out. We have two wonderful children and a semblance of friendship after a 15 year marraige. He has a new love now and I’m very happy for him. My rules are about protecting and healing myself from being hurt again by the likes of the Gem-slut-boy. I’m sorry if they seem trite or seperatist or intolerant.

    • David, you sound like a smug married person. Plus you’re an Aries, not all guys are as decisive as you.
      Also, times have changed since you met your wife. We’re doing the best we can.
      I ceased looking for a ‘soul mate’ many years ago. Someone to love and live with sounds nice.

      • Just saying that if my wife had had the same rules as above we wouldn’t be together, not trying to be smug. (Even the word smug makes me sick). I know your doing the best you can, I just get upset with all the ‘rules’ shite. and these threads always have a whiff of sexist malarky ! I understand the idea of rules to protect oneself but god it can get confusing…in a wood/trees type of way.

    • I agree, but as a woman I must protest I never bought into this weird idea of movie love. real times for real peoples xx

    • you are sooo right David. i do notice shoes but only after they are deemed a good kisser

  36. Great rules davidl. I am certainly not holding out for some elusive “soul mate”.

    We set rules because we have had our hearts shat on and stomped over by men who didnt/dont care. We have been left hearbroken, broke, emotionally fuqed because we didnt set rules and boundaries last time. We do it in an effort to help us find ourselves and nurture our values, so we can seperate the wheat from the chaff so to speak.

    • “We set rules because we have had our hearts shat on and stomped over by men who didnt/dont care”.
      Please put the violin down and take some responsibility for picking losers. You don’t strike me as being so naive ? You did have rules then you know, just not ‘written down’ ones.
      I think it may have been you above who judged a man by their living situation ?
      If your rules are wrong in the first place, how are they going to make a difference ? more likely cause you more grief I think.
      Throw away the rule book, and the one in your head Sass, it will help.

      • Lets just say the only rule I had was if the girl had ‘rules’ I’m gone, cause its only going to be a matter of time before I break one and give her an excuse to blame and abuse me for ‘letting her down’. Ooops broke a rule, we all lose ! great !

      • Hahaha violins down. I am taking responsibilty by being true to myself and setting boundaries, which I certainly had no rules or boundaries when I was younger. I fell in love, married, had a child but it didnt work out. I certainly didnt have rules then, now as a mother I really need to set rules for myself.

        My mother dated a man for 6 years who lived with his mum (a mummys boy, her words) and he never wanted to move out and get real, into reality. He had an op and needed help with showering, my ma was drying him in the bathroom and his mum barged in and ripped the towel out of her hands and said “Let me do that” (yes he was naked btw and he is 36 yrs old!!!! I mean we need some boundary setting….and rules. I only say these things from my experience or what others have put up with.

        I’m happy that your marriage has worked out and you have 3 wonderful kids with your Cancerian wife.

        • oh Sass, eeeeww 36 years old… nude…! Makes me think of that awful movie – Bad Boy Bubby. *shudder*

          • I said to her “what are you doing with this man”. She left him about 8 months later, she was in love I suppose.. BTW he is still living with his mum.

        • Believe me Im not trying to show off…I used me as an example because for all intents and purposes I was ‘all wrong’ for her,(and all youse above) at the time, and her for me..we just put that all aside thank god and played in straight and open with each other. Im sorry it didn’t work out for you with the ex, people change, no rules can stop that happening.

          You mum dated a man for 6 years who lived with his over bearing mum ? Thats just wrong. Really, who is to blame here ? Him, his mum ?

          • hence most of the above rules that the lovely women of this blog have put forward are far more about boundaries for ourselves- red flags etc for us- rather than ‘i will not date a guy who…’

            you answered your own objection david by saying you and your wife to be (back then) played straight and open. therein lies the problem with many modern relationships- people are *not* open or straight with each other, causing much pain down the track. its not that people change, but that they dont present themselves authentically to begin with.

            im sure most women would see past ‘living at home with mum’ as a problem if their gut said it really was circumstantial/temporary etc. the prob is the men who do not grow up. yes, we know you are not one of them david. but you are also (sorry) or a different generation to many of us. those pf us in our thirties are dealing with a different breed.

          • if she had ‘rules’ she would have slapped the mother down and walked out then and there….she took a chance on a man who lived at home and it probably just fuqed her up…

          • Ummm, I think I have a ‘modern’ relationship Saggi, my wife is 40 Im 50 we were 28 and 38 respectively when we met ? it was only 12 years ago ? are you serious ? Im a looong way from the rest home. These issues have always been there, always will, they don’t change, they are universal and timeless.

          • I hate all the bad vibe re: guys that live at home. My brother did (had lived interstate for a while) when he met his now wife, I can understand the preconceived idea of “mummy’s boy” but he was never in that case scenario. In fact, I think his sense of family & strong regard for his mum are something to be admired & something that I seek in a partner. A good sense of family, for me, is ideal. I find it weird when I encounter people with no sense of family. My dad died when i was young & so my mum, brother & I are close, but in a healthy way! From the outside though, on paper, I can see how it would have appeared offputting that he had lived at home etc but circumstances are different for each person. Not all males have overbearing mums with towels at the ready!

          • Oh well, Im off to line dancing at the seniors club down the road, might even grab a Pimms, COMMON LOVE !! Bring some change for the pokies and the meat tray……any of that pension money left in the change jar ?

          • ha, david, it wasnt an insult! nor an insinuation that you are in line for the retirement home :) But the fact is the men even over 40 that i know are generally different from those in their 20s and early to mid 30s now. just different. raised in completely different social and cultural times, with different ideas abut relationships. these issues about relationships aren’t ahistorical, they are very much products of the society and values and environment that we are immersed in and grow up in.

          • ps my only rule: do not get into debates with aries men, we will prob never see eye to eye, yet both have endless energy to keep it going ;)

          • Sorry Saggi, I don’t buy are not living with some ‘new’ type of man because your in your early 30’s. In fact Im finding early 30’s people Im meeting to be quite conservative actually ? quite shallow ? but thats another discussion. Sorry, things have not changed in ‘love’ its just an excuse. In fact girls had it much harder 30 years ago. Anyways wasn’t the SNAG a female invention ? that one backfired a touch.

          • i didnt say new i said different. and they are. my experience… its got nothing to do with conservative or liberal, even those are products of the neo-liberal environment alot of us have grown up under.
            like i said- not going to continue this debate though! too easy to keep it going and wont get anywhere. we are both stubborn and think we’re right.

          • Sorry David, a lot HAS changed in 12 years!! The INTERNET for one. Guys in their late 20’s early 30’s are getting their sex education from porn on the net. I know it’s always been around but not so easily accessible.
            I noticed the change when i broke my 2 year zen drought early this year with the 29 year old Toro. He wanted to do all the cliched stuff one sees in porn. *yawn* I don’t remember sex being like that in the early 90’s!
            And raunch culture wasn’t around 12 years ago either. Why do you think there are so many dating books out there? Roles have changed and everyone’s confused. Even socialising has changed.

            12 years ago, you could go out drinking and meet some interesting people but these days everyone sticks to their little groups or they’re busy playing with there phones… texting, tweeting, updating facebook. And it’s hard to have a spontaneous chat with the cute guy on the train ’cause he’s reading a book on his Kindle or listing to his iPod. 12 years ago, peeps couldn’t cancel a date via a text or dump you with a text message (never happened to me thank god!). So yes, a LOT has changed!

            And don’t get me started on that website for people who are already married but want to have an affair. It seems that people make very little effort these days when sex and affairs are on tap at the click of a mouse. And if something doesn’t work out … pffft they just go back online and find another one.

            Rant over, i’m going to read the paper and get ready for the Socceroos match with Ghana. Carn Socceroos!!! :)

          • exactly scorps. the porn thing in itself completely changes the game, as does the tech aspect of communication/interaction.

            am sitting here waiting for socceroos too! it all rides on tonight!!!

          • OK, things are weird all round re; facebook, internet dating etc. can’t argue with you there. Still don’t know how rules are going to help though.

          • They’re not rules David!!! They’re “attempts to find a new language to improve communication/relationships with the next person” as Quadrupled so eloquently put it.

            Grab a beer and watch some soccer will ya. mm’kay?

          • That sounds like the final group media statement of the Copenhagen (‘save the world, not!) Meeting.

            Definitely watching the soccer, lighting a doobie right now, sitting under a gum tree in the back yard ! oooooommmmm, pppppppppepep, ahhhhhhhhhhhh, thats better. Now what were we talking about. oops just broke another rule !

      • “Please put the violin down and take some responsibility for picking losers”

        Please explain that one? I pick losers because they dont work out or because I end up heartbroken?, that does not make them losers per se.
        Would you say if you divorce your wife she is a loser?

        • Well if she stomped and shat on me…didn’t/don’t care about me.. (in your words) then , yes..she’s a loser, a big one. I wasn’t referring to real relationships that go bad, thats a totally different pathway. Its just all the unnecessary pain we put ourselves thru with people we knew were losers from the beginning but we went there anyway. Or the ones we stayed with for a few months when it was never going to work. That stuff is damaging, and I don’t think people realise how much. Heartbreak is usually caused by a misunderstanding, between 2 people who love each other.

          If its easy for you to love, your lucky..keep loving again and again, the better you get the bigger love is coming right back at you. Being strict with love, covering yourself for protection..if you do it too long you forget how to love.

          • As you said people change. It is hard yes, to see clearly when in a damaging relationship and with all the comments here it can be hard to find a non-damaging one, without some guidance or rules to adhere to when selecting from non’losers and losers. And if you have found a great one, well you’re just not going to let go.

            “Being strict with love, covering yourself for protection..if you do it too long you forget how to love.”

            I understand that. Im feeling my way through my values and what I want and dont want (and the rules I wrote were for a Saturn in Libra new dating paradigm blog) We all have them and I dare say EVEn you have rules too davidl.. Its not like “I will not date a guy who wears flanno shirts or doesnt drive a car or eats meat” Its like I will stick with my values and not be persuaded otherwise.

          • I think it’s also really hard to know what is a ‘loser’. Just like Sassy (I gather) I married fairly young, a man i was head-over-heels with, we were together for five years, we had a kid, then things went royally tit-shit, like, really really bad.

            Sure, I could say – I saw that coming. But i didn’t at all. When I look back I could now say, well, there, see, there at the beginning…yes. My mum’s older friends said ‘well, it was obvious that wasn’t going to last’. But it wasn’t obvious to me at the time. by the time it became obvious, I was completely and utterly alone with a young child, no money at all, living on a friend’s verandah, in very poor health.

            This was shattering. Absolutely shattering. A man I was with for five years walked out on me and his daughter and we…I mean…for god sake I got to the point where i was looking at going to a shelter because i could not afford food, I rang DOCS one day to find out what would happen if i had to surrender my 18 month old. Has this ever happened to you David? I’m sorry to be so blunt – it’s five years gone and I am still crying writing about it. It took me years. My answer was to become the warrior woman of my post above, because survival taught me never to trust my own intuition re;men ever again.
            I am coming out now, scared-like. I’d love to just open my heart and be trusting and happy and whatever./ but the experience of having misjudged it so badly, with ramifications that go on and on and on (I am writing this from the Middle East, where I moved with my daughter two years ago in order to get out of the inner-city welfare single mum cycle) – jeeze, it’s ard not to make rules I’m telling you.
            Love is such a lovely idea.

          • Seabird that is such a hard story and such a painful thing to have gone through as a mother. I am getting teary right now too. I cannot imagine anything worse than having no support or confidence that I can help my baby. Big blessings Xx.

          • Seabird, you are so strong to have gone thru that!! Hugs and sending love your way girlfriend. xxxx
            I’m hoping you are now in a very strong place for yourself and feel happy and healthy..And yes dare I say ;-) keep your rules. If it works for you and they are your values. No one should make you feel bad about what you want or how you go about dating men! xxx

          • Seabird, this thread has sort of meandered from ‘dating’ rules to…well…other things. My thoughts here were more on the lighter side of picking dates etc., not the problems of the long term relationships. No, I have not been in a similar situation to you. I once was with a woman (3 years or so) who had 2 kids who were babies pretty much when we met. That break up was tough because although I didn’t want to be with her anymore and she with me, I lost the kids, straight up. Im sorry if I touched some nerves here but I really was referring more to the dating paradigm not longer term relationships. x

          • I hope this posts to David;’s reply to my reply – I am so technologically inept.

            The thing is, David, that we all bring whatever baggage we have to the table anyway when we’re dating. I guess I was just saying that I agree with Sassy, sometimes you do have to put rules up there, and they are not because you are seeking a perfect man. They are because you so royally fuqued up (see, I’m owning it!) in the past that you need to set boundaries for YOURSELF as much as for the other person. OK, it might not work, but in the state that I’m in, I can no longer just waltz blithely along, dating left right and centre. The other thing is that once you have a kid, it’s actually quite hard for many reasons just to date happily. I think of my child as well, her falther walked out on her even more than he walked out on me. The next man who comes into my life has to realise early on that if he wants to be with me, he has a responsibility to my daughter to be rock-solid about it.

            So yes, dating rules…can’t be seperated from the rest of life.

          • I agree, if there is baggage, your not seeing too well to begin with. Warped perceptions. The same person with baggage can be producing some warped rules to. So yes, drop the baggage, then some boundaries can be negotiated that might work to help the relationship not handicap it.

  37. “i find the biggest lies are from people to themselves not each other”

    Ms, exactly, clever puss… of course people are fooling themselves most of the time, and these people think they can set ‘rules’ for a better life ? a better relationship ? and you know what , the smarter you are the better you are at fooling yourself.
    I have a friend whose father ‘came out’ at 60, yep, lied to himself and family for 40 years ? then produced a young lover, who he insisted must become a part of the family. He was a very intelligent successful mans man too.

    • May I chime in – about mother’s boy? I believe the intention here is “a man emotionally dependent on his mother”. Living together, often but not always, signals this dependency. For me, the red alert is a 40+ old male, who has never been in a long term relationship, other than the one with his mother, independent of his postal address.

      About the rules: It is true, falling in love obeys no rules, but I would not call the posts here as rules, almost all of them reads as attempts to find a new language to improve communication/relationships with the next person.

      • “attempts to find a new language to improve communication/relationships with the next person”

        Nice one Quadrupled! That’s was exactly my impression of all the comments.

        • It seems as soon as Saturn is out to Libra, there will be plenty of anecdotal evidence here on which rules work, which do not.

          And Mystic surely will direct all of us back to this post :)

  38. It’s fascinating that a married man of fifty years old is the authority on what dating feels like for single women in today’s social climate. He seems to have even more authority than the single women on this page… that is a special gift and he has my full attention.

    • His daughter brought home her new boyfriend the other night, he’s living it I am guessing!!!!

      • No, its just all the 20 something girls who are chasing me. ;)
        Im like that guy in that new cheese commercial “I love to hear the problems of your friends” ” I am listening “

  39. Ahem. Re red alert for men over 40 who have never been in a long term relationship.

    I too thought that about my husband when I first met him.

    My mother was very impressed that I had found someone who ‘had no baggage, what luck’. But I asked her “well, what’s wrong with him?”.

    I actually did my utmost to get rid of him because of his harem of quasi girlfriends, who all went quite stupid when they realised I was ‘the one’ for him. They showed up on his doorstep to move in, they would ring any hour of the night, they neede help for broken relationships or broken down cars…. I kept telling him to fuck off!

    This beautiful man was simply very choosy and very busy with his career. Marrying him has been the best move I have made in my life.

    Not all men who have never gone through the motions of having a relationship simply because it’s the done thing are weird. Some are just very discerning, and shy!

    • Sure, a red alert is only an important factor to consider. Lucky for you, luckier for your husband :)

      • Aww thanks quadrupled. He reckons I still scare him because I don’t need him and I keep breaking ‘rules’ that everyone else obeys simply because media, pollies or psychologists say so. Lol!

  40. Oh by the way though….he didn’t live with his mother.

    THAT would be too weird I must admit, unless the ‘him’ is greek or italian maybe? They are very family orientated.

  41. By the way Mystic….LOVE the picture. It is so apt for the current topic you’ve chosen

  42. Wow my ex from 2003 just started texting me constantly the other day – so to read that was very spooky – now i’m trying to read into this and maybe get some insight as to why the sudden contact.

  43. Oh, crikey, I went to bed early & this thread went ape!

    Davidl, it strikes me that most ‘dating rules’ pertain to one’s own behaviour, and are actually not restrictions imposed on the other person. I think I’ve posted before on my mid-30s, post-divorce dating adventures, which were navigated by a combination of ‘The Rules’ & ‘The Ethical Slut’ – two sets of seemingly incompatible guidelines.

    I was, by the way, not shy with my opinions, & more than delighted to partake in porn-inspired activity if the person suggesting was on my wavelength. I had a delightful time, learned a lot, stuffed up occasionally, & wound up meeting my fabulous Stealth Leo in a very Old Fashioned way- at a party, introduced by a mutual friend.

    If I were to whinge about cultural change at all, it would be about the behaviour of partnered people. I always have (and always will) include my single friends in dinners, parties, holidays etc. I was *dropped* by many of my married/partnered friends when I separated (the hets, not the queers). I hope Saturn in Libra allows the smug marrieds to re-shoulder their responsibility to be generous to their single friends (even if the singles are having more sex than they are).

    • I don’t see any smug marrieds around here? If your having a go then at least have some evidence ? Talking about what works for you isn’t smug and smug couples are the least of single peoples issues, surely. Friends who dumped you were not friends in the first place. hello ! and lastly, I know of no single who gets anywhere near the amount of sex that I get. :) unless they are in the business.

      • david, methinks you doth protest too much ;)
        ok ok you have the most amazing marriage and you get more sex than any of us single women and also think we have no clue but you have it figured out! hehe, sheesh!
        and you have us lining up one by one to apologize to you for *you* getting insulted and defensive about anything to do with marriage!

        yep- sorry david you’re not a smug married *at all*… :D

        • oh fuq off please, there was never any smugness and I don’t think anyone is lining up to apologise…enough already..and this is possibly the last time i talk about my own relationship experience or my marriage, hope that makes you feel vindicated.

          • Nah, Davey let it go! I enjoy that there a diverse opinions on this blog. It’s very hard to have an opinion and put it forth succintly without offending. My heart bleeds for some of the pain and loneliness I hear in the comments some days. I like to hear about the happiness in people’s lives, I am happily married and I enjoy learning about how to maintain that as much as some here enjoy passing on gardening or astrology tips..

  44. Oops, sorry David, was not having a go AT ALL. Someone else pitched the SM in relation to you, not me… I was only responding to the Rules discussion, and adding my personal experience (just as you spoke from your experience). Sorry if it appeared to be poking at you, was not intentional.

  45. And just to clarify why I thought it was relevant to add to a ‘dating’ thread… I was introduced to my partner through a mutual friend. I think one of the reasons couples should mix with singles is that’s a good way for singles to meet each other.

    Seems bleedin’ obvious, but in my experience (and it’s been shared by a few of my mid 30s single female friends, too) if all the ‘pizza & dvd nights’ become couples only, it’s very hard for single people to meet others a couple of degrees away in their social circle.

    • you read my mind tle- see post below that i was scribbling as you posted this…

  46. With all this being said, and it has been verry instructive, can i just say i really AM sick of being single in a world of non-interesting/social couples (again david not referring to you! -preempting). I am out there, i really am, and it is hard being single heading towards your mid thirties. hard. lonely. i have beautiful friends who arent married but have kids, or are not in the same city as me at the moment, so even tho they dont fall into the category (even remotely) of hibernating coupledom they also arent available for going out, meeting new people, having late night wine at the cool new bar etc etc. and its like saying out loud that you need to make some new friends to accommodate these unmet needs is totally shameful.
    and most ‘clubs’ (‘join a club! join an evening class!’ ) are filled with retired women over 50. no offense but not the tribe im seeking…

    that is my rant for the day. ive been resisting saying it because i like to stay grateful and positive for all the good amazing people in my life. but another saturday night at home, when im not even one of those people who says ‘theres nothing to doooo’ – there are a million things to do!- is getting really demoralising.

    and yes i do go out on my own- doesnt faze me, cinema, cafes, etc. no problemo. but surely there must be other ways.

    just feeling it today peeps. my divorce has just gone through, and im feeling it.

      • There’s no shame in honesty saggi. The shit storm we’re all feeling our way through will ease in July – hang in there if you can.

    • Hey! Chin up :)

      This must be one of these days.

      I wouldn’t say go find yourself a tribe, I wish I had known how to do it.

      What I know however, a good relationship or not, all of us, you, I have one single life, one single breath.

      Whenever I feel lonely, lost, I try to remind myself, who am I to deny the gifts I bring to this world?

      Enjoy your life, your life is a gift to this world.

      Feel better soon! :)

      • ‘Who am i to deny the gifts i bring to this world’.

        LOVE that. thank you Quads xx

  47. I hear ya, Saggigal. Congrats on the divorce, mate, onwards & upwards!

    When I was partnered all through my 20s I always invited single gfs to social events, to share holiday houses, or just to hang out at home. When I was single in my 30s – zip. I joked (JOKED, Davidl) that it was about the sex, but I don’t think it really is. Hetero people just seem to socialise differently in their 30s.

    I did find I had to go out alone A Lot – and to be honest I met a lot of interesting people that way, and had some fun dating experiences. Five years into a partnership, I still go out with my single mates, but I know (from my experience) that I am in the minority. Alas, I’m rubbish at putting straight mates in the same room for flirty mingling. Though I’m partnered with a straight man, 98% of my friends are gay.

    • thank you ladies x
      i guess ill just venture out alone and hope people think i’m awesomely brave and interesting rather than a desperado loser sally-no-mates :)
      So weird, even in relationships i’ve valued my friendships so highly, but i know not everyone is the same- for some once they’ve got the partner its like their friends were just fill-ins until then.

      • that is the killer bit I think too, I don’t care about being single vs partnered that often at all but when your mates are just couples it kills the fun spontaneous joy of single. never been that dinner couple thing nor could I stomach it, my friends are family. Whenever I get nostalgic I think about us all running around town causing trouble and crashing in each others beds. But we get older and priorities change. This is the growing up bit I am massively resistant too. I just want to be an old mad woman who floats around creating mischief and keep my adult life to biz not stuffy social conventions. xx

        you have to start the party, isn’t saturn 11th house for saggi? I just went through that and had a massive wah about rocking older lifestyles when I was in a couple but my partner (now ex) was away all the time.

        quality companions are the antidote to me,
        I would die and combust of boredom if I had to rely on a one on one partnership for all my entertainment norishment. I hear you xxx

        • ms- YES! ‘Whenever I get nostalgic I think about us all running around town causing trouble and crashing in each others beds’. exactly! its not that i want to *be* 21 (etc) anymore, but the way that friendship was the centre of our lives. i understand babies and career and partners creeping in on that territory (grrr!) but the wholesale relegation of friendship to somewhere down the bottom of the pile of priorities bums me out. couple dinner parties make me cringe- when i was married i found them really achingly cliched, like ‘oh should i go and talk to the other wife in the kitchen now while the men talk about sport?’ its like the roles enveloped the individuality.

          saturn for saggi- do you mean where it is now transiting?yep its going into our solar 11th. for me personally its going into my 6th, and i have jupiter-uranus hitting the very end of my 11th. revolution/liberation/emacipation of friendships??

          i really appreciate the camaraderie on this, its warmed my heart

          • nwa. glad it cheered you up. it is for real the bit I struggle with the hardest about aging. Exactly what I was thinking!- kitchen wife chit chat to pass time while guys talk sport at table.
            even having a more liberal circle doesn’t exclude me from it here completely. I passionately do not want that life- if it makes others happy that’s great! but the energy and the colour that people brought into their lives was the very thing that made me light up and shine the hardest and at this time the division line gets more obvious who wants to be close still and who wants to be someone else’s wife and only interact as “us”. I am exact same, don’t want 21 again, love the adult more wine less shots and quality sans constant clubbing life, but it doesn’t mean we have to fall into horrid stereotype couple gendered repressive crap

            Divorce is hardcore, you need solid crew and nights spent doing whatever the hell you want to do. make it happen babe. saggi’s need comrades :)

          • Yes we do!

            thank you ms, you have seriously made me feel understood for the first time about this! (and the ladies above- so awesome!!)


  48. Saggigal, I suspect those who are attracted to you will be quite pleased you’re on your own. It’s quite daunting for a single fella to approach a group of women – they won’t see you as solo loser, they’ll see you as ‘available’. All the better to chat you up, my dear.

  49. Exactly what RULES are we talking about Davidl in regards to dating? I’d like to hear a list or something of what you mean if you have time

    • My only rule for dating.

      If its like a ‘flash’, an instant, eye to eye, heart to heart, mind to mind, mini orgasm, I’m wide open. Time to get some details. tick

      If not…let the games begin !

      we know in the first 15 mins, but we can stretch it out for years.

      • I have Mars in Scorp, so my rule is ‘get them before they get you’.

        I get what you’re saying davs about rules though. Rules have a habit of killing spontaneity, if they’re not blown sky high. Preconceptions are lethal. When you’re with the right person, you so know it. With luck, they do too.

      • See I dont get that though…….it works first up but then the details creep in and theres a lot more to making a relationship work than just that initial ‘flash’. And when it comes down to it its up to each party to WANT to put in the effort to work on those little details so that they can build a solid base for the relationship.

        Thats what I think..

          • yah i have aries rising. so i get the initial thing and then i realise theres more to the surface thing…

          • There just seems to be a lot of projection stuff happening at the moment (particularly with people around me….says a lot for what I’m manifesting….) but there are a lot of those ‘flashes’ between people and looking a teensy bit deeper its like, these people are NOT compatible. I give it 3 weeks. Or more likely- I give it until each person is ready to grow up and out of whatever neurosis is holding them in an immature projection-based relationship.

            arggggh angst coming out sorry

          • I agree. Of course there’s more to the surface. I would never rely on a “flash”. It takes me AGES to suss someone out – I think a lot of water and earth signs do. Actions speak louder than words for me. I don’t rely on what people say but what they DO! and you’re not going to get all of that info in a flash.

          • Yeah,
            I’m so sick of people who are all talk and their actions just don’t match up. It’s weird, unsettling to me and it seems either really arrogant or just neurotic depending on different ways on looking at it.
            I don’t know, I just want to get away from people like that. It’s weird how mcuh correlation there is to spending time with people = becoming like them. I feel like I can’t ever really work at these relationships, i.e. can’t find some common ground.
            Either I stay, compromise half of myself and live a half life, or leave, grow immensely, will pretty much end up cutting them off. I don’t know. The guilt is the only thing holding me to this/these situations/people.
            Is it something socially conditioned about not leaving people behind? Or is it a personal issue I have???

          • “I would never rely on a “flash”. It takes me AGES to suss someone out ”

            and in my book that type of ‘sussing’ can be quite off putting. If Im mad about someone and there is this undertone of constant scrutiny it can create this ‘doppleganger’ effect. Its like the questions you are asking are forming an image that takes life, your creating a monster !!! ahhhhhhh
            Pisceaaaaane talked about it , projection.

            A flash just isn’t on the surface, , its mind, heart and body, it goes deep.
            A knowing ? (before the death by 1000 scrutiny’s)

          • You become what you mix with, one can over time dispute that.
            Its neurotic in my view..the saying and doing stuff. The ‘wimper’ (orwell) is mental illness. Sanity is so rare these days.

          • :lol: nice one David. :lol:

            Pisceannn, i think it’s a personal issue. I don’t have any problems leaving people behind, never compromise myself or live half a life. Life’s too short man! (moon in Sagg) :)

          • David, you can’t know someone in 15mins!!
            All you can know in 15mins is whether you’re going to sleep with them or not. It might take me 30 minutes before I even get around to talking politics and if i find out they think highly of Tony Abbott then i’m outta there. That’s just an example, I don’t carry around a mental list of questions i must know. THAT’S what i mean by “sussing” out – a conversation! not an interrogation. And if you think that’s off putting i don’t fuqing care!!!

            Not everyone falls in love at first sight and lives happily ever after like you have. If you can fall in love / “flash” know someone “mind, heart and body, it goes deep” GOOD FOR YOU!!!!!
            Maybe i’ve yet to experience it, maybe i never will. You banging on about it isn’t helping.
            And I have no idea what ‘doppleganger’ effect…..”creating a monster” thing you’re talking about and don’t care. I’m bored with this conversation.

            And my comment re the Aries “flash” was not meant to be an insult either. It’s just an observation of an Aries trait.

          • Sorry your bored with the conversation but I do have to reply to your last comment. Its always been like that for me, instant. In every relationship I’ve ever had. Some lasted 6 months some lasted years. It wasn’t some one off thing. Been like that since I was 16. I have a lot of love to give and just because it didn’t work out in some previous relationship doesn’t mean Im going to curb my enthusiasm for the next one. Now you did say it takes you AGES to suss someone out. I didn’t know that meant a 30 minute conversation. In the end we are all grown ups and must take responsibility for out life situation. If you think your process works for you, great. Mine works for me. By the doppleganger I mean that you ask questions, make judgements and pretty much think you have someone sussed when in fact its a version of them that only exists in your mind and is not based on reality.

        • Davidl- whats the wimper?

          Scorpalicious robot- I really feel this ‘flash’ is a projection. It’s actually a longing to integrate the other persons ‘amazing’ attributes as your own. Thats why most of those relationships run their course over time/come up against roadblocks. I think people and society really need to figure out what it is to be grounded and centred in ones self in relation to our core values and how they line up with world values, in harmony with the environment, with spirituality etc.
          I think if you’re trying to find a relationship or if you’re having man/women troubles then you’re off the wrong track in probably ALL other areas of your life, or at least a core area.
          It shouldn’t be about a chase, or about games, or about projections, or about aa neptunian fantasy relationship.
          there is ANOTHER level of relationship that honestly I have only seen in the raw foodist community overseas. There may be other groups of people the same but I dont know.
          It’s not ‘relating’ as is presented to us by society its completely different

  50. This is an absolutely stunning thread of posts, there are so many ideas, borne out of real life experience. And I do agree that plenty of what’s been shared here is a postscript to each contributor’s self, a reminder if you will. I hadn’t even thought to say much because well, I wasn’t sure I could clearly articulate what in my mind I think the New Saturn in Libra dating paradigm would be.

    Scorpalicious painted an amazingly accurate picture of how cloistered people have become, immersed deeply in an individual world through the wave of change technology has effected in our social interactions..which ironically is meant to connect us to each other even more. I thought about that one a lot.

    Here in LA, where everyone drives, there is less of a chance of the kind of social democracy that would encourage interaction i.e. trains, regular commuting. It’s depressing to think of. Then I think of the fact that almost everyone here goes back home, cracks the laptop open to wistfully check the Missed Connections section as inevitably they’d lost the nerve to say something when the opportunity was there or hope that someone out there is sort of looking for them.

    It’s undeniable that we all want to connect. I don’t know how to address that with “rules” per se i.e. as in something similar to The Rules. There’s valuable wisdom in the self-care and responsibility presented by everyone who’s listed their version of dating by-laws, mainly for themselves, and much of this was self-directed.

    But most of all, what occupies my thoughts most is Trust. I want to trust myself. That if and when I meet someone worth knowing that all I’ve learned and suffered through to this point will come to the fore and help instruct me. That if and when they turn out to be just a really good person, that same wisdom, that same knowledge in action will kick in and I could, with care, extend that trust to them, as they earn it of course. That if and when they are evil incarnate, it will not take me as long as it had to recognize.

    The landscape of dating always changes, today it’s the internet, 70 years or so ago, it was a war, or some would even say, the pill. As annoyed as I am about how individually enclosed people can become today due to the internet, I think that is all a matter of navigating. If I cannot trust to hope that I can practice love within the context of a relationship, then I’m simply going to think about it as a “problem”. And loving, which is such a human requirement, is something which doesn’t really thrive when viewed that way.

    The other thing I recognize is that we all grow up making the mistakes we’ve made, or conversely have had to lose our innocence in wrongful acts partners have instigated in the “name of love”. We have to be able to forgive ourselves for times we just didn’t know any better, didn’t have the right guidance or support, couldn’t have found out any other way sooner while lucidly accepting those things we really are responsible for.

    If I had to think of a paradigm shift for Saturn in Libra, it’s to understand what partnerships can really deliver, and to me its that partnership/relationship is a space that avails you of the kind of growth you cannot experience being solo, because it is given by the condition of having to be with another with all their foibles, and allure. With all their sin and their mercy. For however short or long that time may be.

    It’s not to say that being single means zero growth, I want to be clear about that. Not at all. Just that a relationship is a catalyst for certain things you couldn’t easily pull out on your own, for instance for me it was a lot about reconciling the idea of freedom with being attached. Theoretically easy to discuss but in practice, when partnered, well, let’s just say some things I never had words for were glaring.

    I understood what the Taurean Alchemist was saying, I guess I took it more as coming from a non-oppositional perspective while still stating one’s own opinion. Not so much that you couldn’t but that there’s a way for the feminine and masculine to weave with that and not be obliterated by it. And I also agree with davidl’s “there are no rules” opinion in the same sense the army trains you rigorously with protocols, but when you’re out in field battle well, you have to think on your feet and you do what you think is right at the time. And as Uber pointed out, it kind of kills the spontaneity.

    But for me, I’m still meditating on trust. My own self-trust. I want to show up for me, then I know for sure that when it comes time for me to show up for someone else, it’s for the right reasons.

    • I think there is merit to this weird kind of life inside technology if we can find a way to work with it. Eric Francis has posted quite a few blog posts on this topic.
      I think its very easy to get caught up in the technology as a way of escape and yet its a very common afflicition, so common that the majority of people think its normal. But then these people are living half lives. Or pretty much skeleton lives. Most of their sense of self is based upon external ‘marking points’ or social cues such as dress, manner, social rules etc. These people kind of live a life in the reptillian brain although it may not be conscious, they are living in pursuit of acceptance. So everyday every action is taken with the underlying question of will this or will this not be accepted, i.e. will this action lead me to be accepted or not accepted?
      I have been living this life for quite some time, and ironically it was the retreating from everyone into an internet world that has gotten me out of the headspace. What comes with that though is the realisation that everything I have built around me, everything I see around myself is not compatible with my true authentic self at ALL!
      Everything I have been living in has actually been a psychic cage interwoven with social conditioning, past influences masquerading as present situations/relationships, loads of ‘stimulus’ for extending these neurosies because its like, no one around here, around me around a lot of people get it.
      There is a way to get out of everything and it is to seriously go within like was done by most of the yogis etc (into the woods to reflect).
      That could be interpreted in a weird way….trying to say we all do know everything. We’re all inherently smart. We just need to continue to peeeeeel back the layers, constantly scrutinise how everything/situation/person makes you feel.
      Sit with the feelings and the mental processes come up naturally.
      Blah blah blah sorry I’m boring myself.
      Point is, this is why I don’t believe in the ‘flashes’ of attraction because they’re based on surface level relating.

      • EVERYONE ALREADY KNOWS EVERYTHING. I agree . heres another.
        why should some piece of earth be any more precious than another ?
        There is so much light upon us its nearly blinding, whats it going to take for people to see 1% of it…I could go on x

        • yes to the light one definately- if you need to pray for the light to be upon you then you are living in darkness and only you can get yourself in with the ‘light’

  51. This thread is rather wonderful. I have been alone now for quite some time, not just alone in the sense of not having a partner, but alone because I live in a very remote area of the Middle East and on a day-to-day basis I have very little interaction with people from my own culture. It’s been quite a blast to read the comments, many coming from Australia, England and America, and to know once again that we are all so human.

    I think that process of growing up (which is what I’ve done while I’ve been here), is to move away from finding someone as a reflection or justification of self – which is actaully a very hard thing for many of us to do, and to know, as someone above pointed out, that relationships help us to grow, they are one approach to the divine, possibly the closest we can get to knowing another – to knowing ourselves as well, and that this is why we continue to seek them. because really, we are all alone on this earth, all looking at mortality through the same end of the lens.

    The other night I was lying in bed, and i had one of those strange flashes that i sometimes get, just a moment of utter clarity. i thought – ‘it all, all, none of it matters in the end, and because it does not matter, because you suffer so much to learn that it does not matter, this is what makes it valuable, this is how you reach true calm.’ Does this make sense? With this comes the true belief that you can love someone without necessarily ‘owning’ them, which is what I have tried to do in the past. You can love someone more than they love you, and so long as you are not suffering from it, it is valid. I think that we are often trained to believe that all love must be equal and reciprocal, when in fact it very rarely is so tit-for-tat. But being able to be cool with that means that you really have to be very cool with yourself, to know that nothing that someone else can diminish you, because you do not beleive yourself to be diminished. This is hard-won, for me. I don’t mean that i could now front up for a relationship with a cheating junky – that would be diminshing myself, I just mean that it really is only through self-trust – as mentioned above, that we can get to a state where a wonderful relationship with a partner can happen. It aso means that on a day-to-day basis, I can be genuinlely thankful for the ;love I already do have. Just today I looked at the woman i have employed to look after my daughter here, and i realised that, although we are from very different backgrounds, still, I have grown to love her and her daughter, and I know that she loves me as she loves my daughter too. It is not a complicated love, not deep, but it is genuine and it includes us in its care. Not a small thing.

    This is a really out-there state for me, because there’s nothing to cling onto, there’s nothing to agonise over, and so my tired wheel-rut mind believes that there will be nothing to celebrate either. Not so, not so. utter and complete freedom because you cede control of a situation which is beyond your control anyway (the hopes, dreams, desires, action of another), and just see it all for what it is, not a reflection of you, because you have no reflection on this mortal earth, but purely, love for another person. And if it doesn’t work, this is not a reflection on you either.

    One of my rare friends here said to me a couple of months ago – you know, it was just that your marriage failed – it wasn’t that you failed. ” he was right, i didn’t fail. And next time, if there is a next time, I will use the right pronoun in the correct sentence, not me, but it. I can’t fail, because i am still alive.

    Random thoughts, sorry. I must go to bed. It’s been a delight.

    • Yes. I understand what you mean – on several accounts, same location/ same marital status/same insight several months ago: at the end nothing matters. Give yourself time, this is all I can tell myself, this is the longest, hardest cycle but who said it would be easy.

    • That is so true seabird. Just what I was trying to say in an earlier post-
      people choose partners based on justifying themself.
      I’ve been in a situation where this has happened recently.
      I KNOW the person I was with a few months back is someone I have a deep connection with for whatever reason (and feel that I need to do some sort of work with them- no ‘flight’ this time….for some reason I know I need to ‘fight’) anyway we ran into the brick wall and instead of facing the parts of himself that he didn’t want to change he decided to pick someone else who wouldn’t ‘judge’ him (didn’t say this…or anything overtly) but basically she is someone who really doesn’t have a sense of self, fits into his life and personality easily, allows him to continue doing what hes doing/being who hes being although he is really just prolonging the process of growth. I can see his potential as a person (btw I have not nagged, or am a nagger of that sort trying to change people all the time but I see peoples potential and it frustrates me when people dont want to grow) but he just sees me as being offensive or grating to his little fragile bubble of fake ignorance.

  52. Pisceann – that’s it though, isn’t it, it cuts both ways. I had the same situation before i left Australia, with a man I’d known for 8 years. He was in love with me and i with him, but on a day-to-day level it was a nothing of a relationship because he believed strange things about me, and he didn’t support me and couldn’t see the support I gave him He is now with a much younger woman, one he started seeing before we had properly broken up. My parting shot to him was – ‘Good, I’m glad that you found someone who will do and say everything that you want, who you can order to love you in the way you want.’

    When I came back for a holiday last year, he wanted me back. No go. He’s still with her.

    This was, though, a lesson for both of us. He can’t look at himself properly and so he will not get what he craves in the end because it might mean changing himself. That is up to him. But then again, who am I to judge, he might crave really to be with someone like the girl he has now, after all he is with her and not me or someone else. he might just have been trying to complicate his life with me, but actually, he might know himself really well and be really happy with this. I am happy either way because i do really love him, if he’s happy with her, I am happy for them.

    Sheesh, that took a while. And I win too, because through him I learnt a lot about him and about myself and I know what I don’t want, and if he was with me but really wanted to be with her then that would suck, and if he was with her but wanted to be with me but wasn’t adamant enough to make it happen then that would suck too.

    So this is an example of it not mattering. We are both exactly where we are meant to be. I am very happy. I presume he is very happy. because I love him, if he is happy, this makes me more happy. Finish.

    • That is very true seabird…You’ve given me a lot to think about. And I have been thinking about it a lot. There seems to be so many levels to work out within myself before I can get peace with the way everything is/OR decide I need to speak up/act out against something.
      I really do feel I need/want to speak up about a lot of these things but then its like, hey, is it worth it? Maybe I see more than he does…maybe its too much for him right now….maybe we’re both where we need to be. Maybe this is giving me an opportunity to work on some part of myself that wouldn’t have been opened up to my awareness had things not turned out this way. Maybe somewhere down the track we BOTH would have progressed to a point that will lead us back together….I’m really not sure.
      But there are a lot of practical details at the moment that are gluing us together so I can see that sometime in the near future there will have to be some sort of a sit down to sort it out, and I feel like its only natural I will say what I have to say. And most likely get my vision blurred by a reaction from him that doesn’t feel ‘right’.
      Ha, emotional wording at the moment- must be the water sign sun and moon.
      It’s hard though…..I mean, I can do this whole internal searching thing and come up with the exact answers I that feel right mentally emotionally physically etc but when relating it back, or transfering it to outer world situations I have some sort of weakness in that I let myself get really muddled up by other peoples reactions. It’s so hard for me to separate peoples reactions as being really individual to their own perpeptions and not necessarily a true reflection of what I’m putting out there.
      Thats some baggage I need to get rid of though….stems from childhood and having parents who always gave me a really really distorted and confusing and other stuff reflecion/image of myself.
      Anyway- that all made sense to me! Not sure if its easily readable…

      • Sorry to intrude, I was reading something the other day that sparked when I saw this. (I have lots of outworn perceptions of life, stemming from the rather harsh lessons of my childhood also Pisceannn)
        “Education is the process of learning how to perceive and analyze reality correctly. That would include subjects like ethics, science, history, and important literature”.
        But just as important for me is how analyse reality correctly in relationships, be it with yourself or others, I don’t think we are taught how to view reality at school at that’s kind of a shame.

  53. It is NOT your job to change someone or to force them to progress. You might think you are helping them, but this again is really a reflection of your own needs, because in the end, if you look at it with total honesty, what you are doing by trying to change someone or to get them to confront their weaknesses is to make them BE with you in a way that YOU want. So it’s total projection. This is really really hard to put into practice, but once you do, god how freeing.

    • Yeah true…its just hard to make the leap- you need a lot of space and time to re-centre to make the leap from acting/behaving/living in one way to another because there are so many things to consider and ultimately change…..where you live, who you live with, how you spend time and with who….arrrrrrrrrrrrgh
      it’s weird being in the ‘gap’ and so easy to fill in that gap with things that are only ‘half’ right for you because either you get scared of waiting, or you run up against a mental block that prevents you from actually taking the practical steps to get there.
      It had been a weird cycle of mine, I get into that space when I know I need like an ‘upgrade’ of consciousness and I get a really clear channel to my intellect/emotions etc and find I have a clear vision of where I want to be/whats not right about the situation I’m in etc, and then I hit this roadblock with manifestation where I think, oh crap, now I have to put it into action, where to start? Where to get support? What to do when I run up against a wall? etc…..maybe too sensitive….maybe making excuses for some reason…

      • Pisceann …

        you sound really confused. First off … just breathe. You know – oxygen – in, out, in out. Calm calm calm … it’s all ok …

        Secondly I’ll give you a bit of insight to your dilemma from my personal experience. Take it or leave it … that’s up to you.

        From what you’ve said above you’re describing the onset of “spiritual awakening”. That sense of … I know where I need to be – but I can’t get there!!! Damnit … damn damn damn fuq damn shit poo bum… etc

        The first stage of awakening is to be aware that things need to change.

        The second stage is an admittance that – you can’t actually change it yourself no matter how much you may want to!!! Damnit … damn damn damn fuq damn shit poo bum… etc

        This is all normal and many, many people have experienced this exact same thing with perhaps different expletives to describe the frustration.

        The whole POINT is that your ego and instincts alone are INCAPABLE of creating the change that you want to manifest.

        … and that’s where your journey starts and where spirit comes in to provide useful guidance.

        How that happens for you personally I wouldn’t have a clue – but from what you’ve said above, you are already connected to your personal guide and all you need to do is learn to differentiate its distinct voice from the multiple ego voices in your head.

        You may also need some healing/clearing work … not sure of your situation but it’s usually the case.

        It’s all good. Really. :)

  54. It is all good, and it is also all very hard.

    I’ve spent two years practically alone, and this is how I’ve come to it.

    I will say that it is a process of learning how to live with the truth. – of learning how to be weak to be strong.

    My best piece of advice for you Pisceann would be as above, learn to breathe, learn to meditate. You cannot change anything in the world around you if you cannot know yourself. And you can never change another person without their consent, and to do so is a form of violence, however much you think you might be helping.

    kinda like trying to convert Iraq to American-style democracy. Can’t work, won’t work and involves violence which hurts both sides.

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