Ages ago, i got sent a review copy of The Rules & everyone who came to this dinner party at my house denounced it on various grounds. End of the night the book was gone – nicked. So even though i was married then, i bought a copy – curious – somebody came over, again, said it was crap – stole it. The local library says it is always their most nicked book as well.
Why Men Love Bitches is actually a fab read though i had to always quickly hide it when any of the Aquarians came over & it fits into the same category as The Rules; essentially – men love/need to chase, don’t deny them that thrill and while you’re at it, have some fuqing standards. There are a few in that same genre and then there are the more New Agie ones where you’re into candour & honesty, letting someone know how you feel et al. Barbara De Angelis (the ex wife of Men Are From Mars -Women Are From Venus dude) is prob more in that genre. And then there are ones written by male pick-up artists or the genre where men tell us ladies to get with how men actually just are. Sigh. And this is without even entering into gay relationships.
What I want to find out is if there are some signs more or less inclined to ever look at a dating/self-help relationship book?
Also whether your essential instinct (if you are happily married please just hark back to dating) is to treat-them-mean-to-keep-them-keen OR total goobly candour?
And what approach works best on what sun sign?
I think The Rules sort of work (especially when it comes to keeping your own dignity by not text-stalking etc) but maybe not on Aquarian men. Well, actually they work too well on some men- to the point that the second you relax and are nice/available/candid – they’re evasive.
Venus sign if you know it please!
Tags: Act Like A Lady - Think Like A Man, astrology dating, astrology love, astrology romance, astrology seduction, Barbara de Angelis, Mars, Men Are From Mars Women Are From Venus, Sherry Argov, The Rules, Venus, Venus sign, Why Men Love Bitches
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I think the name of this book is stoopid. Men generally don’t like bitches, its just crapolla… when a mate has a girlfriend who is a bitch there is sympathy not jealousy. This is just another book for stupid bitches who need some justification for their behaviour. The book should be called how bitches always end up with drop kicks. Venus in Taurus.
Re: my style? Ive always known it when I saw it, then we work out the details. Its an eye to eye thing, a scent thing, never skimpy skirts and brothel like behaviour. The ugliest thing in a woman racism in all its wonderful hues.-
the book isn’t titled “Real Men……..
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davidl, you’re amazing.
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nicely put, davidl.
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davidl you gots style! applause.
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i am so very intrigued by this book, but know i could never follow it, or any other like it, re: actual ‘advice’. i am far too candid and tactile to ever try to act one way/think another etc, or be clever about how i come across. but i DO really get into books like Women who run with the Wolves, which is obviously more personal growth oriented, but certainly that then filters into the way i am in relationships.
with men i’ve generally been incredibly upfront, breezy about how i feel. the times ive descended into chase mode with men etc its usually a sign there is other stuff involved in the dynamic- ie, not healthy for me. So i’d say i’m of the goobly candor variety. And it has worked for me, for the most part. Esp. on saggitarians, geminis and virgos (in my experience) and oddly really draws in Cancerian men…
Saggi sun-venus-neptune (and juno, ceres…etc)
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A friend of mine once said “I need to learn how to do the cool thing the way you do” and I have to say goobly candor has never featured. My husb’ and probably too ferociously proud (both moon in leo) but crazy about each other underneath it all. re long gone dating days yep pretty much ice maiden regarding “needs”
venus in Libra -
I love hearing all the different bits of advice but I could never be anything but myself when I’m actually in the situ. Not quite sure what that is. Honest, I suppose, without over-disclosure – straightforward. I like to treat people well, and be treated well, and be treated honestly – if you aren’t interested, tell me, don’t be evasive because I find that frustrating and unkind. To me, it’s pretty simple. Well, in theory. No one’s beating down my door!
Also, it’s just so crucial that the guy knows how to lighten up and have fun.
Sun Sagg/Moon Aries/Pisces Rising/Venus in Sagg.
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I”m with you Hazelberry. I don’t believe in being anything other than myself, I don’t want to play games etc I like to believe it can all just fall in to place & be easy but after my last brief experience a part of me thinks books such as the one above have a basis…but when push comes to shove I couldn’t do it.
Don’t worry, you aren’t the only one, my door is awfully silent too!
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Crap books of this ilk remind me that behind all our sham sophistication most of us are still just a bunch of upright primates.
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I aspire to the heights of hard-to-get, but am too impatient to wait or indignant that I can’t make it happen on my schedule – so I usually chase/initiate and then – I’m goobly candour all the way and it hasn’t worked yet.
Sun Scorp, Moon Taurus, Venus Libra
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Aaaaa I’m rather the same way, also with Sun in Scorp and Venus in Libra! I’ve had a few successes…not for long, but successes initially!
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Cant be anything but myself. Most fellas tend to sigh with relief that I don’t do the bitch attitude but I’m no doormat either.
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OMG I was just reading about this book on the weekend!
Its such a shame we just cant be ourselves without all the game, but it doesnt work like that does it?!
sun taurus, moon sagg, venus gemini
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Being a bitch to try to manipulate someone into staying?
No-one’s going to stay…even if they stay until they die… they still go….
better to accept the “comings and goings” of life I reckon(however I have found that courting before sex is a good idea)
Sun Pisces, Moon Scorpio, Venus Aquarius
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Hey, I’m a bitch and I’m not that popular.
Venus in Virgo. Relationship books never make any sense to me. A lot of twee generalizations. I think I skimmed The Rules, which seemed to make some sense and I probably do them, just haven’t met any men that do too.
Having said that my Venus is conjunct my midheaven, so I tend to get a lot more out of my work then I do from any men I’ve been with. In which case I should be banned from these discussions.
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Uber I love you. If that isn’t candor then I don’t know what is.
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btw.. forgot to mention I loathe these kind of books and how they ‘how to’. Wouldn’t read it if paid. With venus in my sixth I love my work, don’t mean to appear aloof but it is the impression (I’ve heard along the grapevine)
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oh..Virgo sun..and I respond to a restrained approach with underlying passion. pffft!
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i definitely think this rationale does work on men who tend to behave like bastards in relationships. Essentially it’s just saying to treat yourself with dignity – you go under pretty fast otherwise with such men.
They tend to commodify the exchange, thus, if you expect respect, (AND look to die for) they classify you as ‘top shelf’, and become intrigued, which gives one a temporary boost doesn’t really move mountains in anything other than the short term, i.e., eventually it reduced to a power play, which is their comfort zone, and you end up having to walk away.-
it works on players but i agree – when there are clearly real feelings there and amazing rapport, ie; maybe love – it’s sort of crappy and dishonest.
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Thus spake Zarathustra.
Not many seem to get ‘Power WITH not Power OVER’ -
Myst…you have dinner guests that steal books from you. What?!
Is it a Sydney thing. People were always stealing from me when i lived there.Peeps want what you have syndrome.
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Venus in Capricorn.
Love peeps of ’substance’. -
Ay, ay, ay!!! The mysteries of the human heart – why do we love at all, how do we fall in love, is there really something to this soul mate thing? What exactly is a bitch? Seek only truth, give respect and keep the histrionics to a minimum. Focus on self worth and giving more than receiving. These books are a waste of carbon.
When dating, including my husband of many years, I tried to be as upfront as possible and played very few games. My major loves were all Sagittarian (including my hubby).
Aries Sun, Cancer Rising, Libra Moon, Venus in Aquarius.
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Venus in Cancer, Cancer rising, Gem moon.
I love dating books, but feel free to cherry-pick the bits I like, & leave the rest. For example, in my mid-30s single-hood I combined The Rules with The Ethical Slut (review of the 1st edition is here: http://www.sexuality.org/authors/henkin/whes.html). It worked a treat.
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How? Have read both – am curious?
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I tended to do the Rules stuff with people I didn’t already know, or who weren’t part of my existing social circle. I did *no* dating in my 20s- was hitched from 21-34, so aspects of the Rules were useful for setting boundaries up to the point where I determined whether I was dealing with a player or not. My late teens were full of mooning & drama over men – wasn’t interested in doing *that* again. I should add, I was not looking for husband, and was seriously not interested in playing hard to get sexually – just didn’t want to get jerked around by one of those Jekyll & Hyde types.
Ethical Slut was more useful for negotiating the actual sexual relationships, particularly with ‘friends with benefits’.
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There’s a big marketing component to the bitch book too. Books with provocative titles sell. It would be hard to sell a getting real self help book called ‘Respect yourself and set boundaries and attract a decent man who might not be hot looking’
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You could co market it with The Leo Socialites diet book “The really boring diet that keeps you slim”….
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I’m not interested in relationship books at all: another attempt by the capitalist partriarchy to pin women down & stop them having any autonomy & self-generated self-respect. I would not be impressed if a partner pulled any nonsense either. Sun Gemini, venus in taurus. I feel fairly intuitive about which tactics work for/ on different people.
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It works although I hate the fact that it does. The more avaiable you are the less you get thought of in my experience.
I also know of a few women who are naturally like this (I would say high maintenance not bitches) and the men flock to them and love it. Of course in the long run it gets tedious for the poor wee things but by then they are hooked.
Plus I’d never buy a book that told me to look for a man who might not be hot looking – you’re right it would never sell.
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yup, treacle, i agree, i suspect it works but hate that it does too.
a couple of thoughts occur, if you have to fake some sort of approach that isn’t really you, is it ever sustainable and if the object of your desire responds to such tactics, is that really desirable.
can’t be bothered really and don’t think same formulas can be applied to the variables of relationships anyway.
i wouldn’t mind being the one writing the book though and making all the money, LOL!
toro sun, cancer moon, virgo rising and venus in aries
PS: the HM is a player, sob, sob!
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‘Why Men Love Bitches’ used to be my bible!! I had a copy and various sections were underlined, highlighted etc…the title is tongue in cheek. It’s not about being a bitch at all, it’s about having some freakin’ dignity in the very and oh so confusing dating game. A girl needs a little help now and then. And this book is not like The Rules, with egg timers and the weird ‘wear pantyhose (oh yeah flesh-coloured?) and don’t fold your legs crap…it’s practical, funny, perceptive and gives one a practical guide to CALM DOWN when you really like someone (unless of course you are with your girlfriends, then you can rave about him). I thoroughly recommend this book to ANY woman, single, dating, like someone, in a relationship, married…it’s brilliant. I lent my copy and never got it back.
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Sun Virgo- Scorpio Venus-Scorpio Rising.
I haven’t read either book but would out of curiosity.
I tend to keep men at a distance until I feel I can trust him. There was a time period is all that I attracted were scorp men and each one was a “player” in his way.
The two men I dated briefly that ended up stalkers both had Scorpio Rising which scares me since I have Scorpio Rising. I am still unsure what I might have done to cause their frightening intense behavior.
My so is a Virgo Sun, Sag Rising and Venus in Libra. He is upfront, honest, loves art and to travel but is not secretive, intense in a negative way or pretentious. He dislikes games and I agree.
Ultimately, if games are being played then there’s a serious problem. Just my IMHO. -
Cancer Sun/Venus with Aries moon here, and I just act like myself. Or I just started that. I’m too honest and a bit vulnerable/emo seeming, which is just a turnoff to the wrong kind of guy. When I tried to hide it I made an even bigger ass of myself, so I’ve resigned to just blabbing as usual. If someone doesn’t like it, hey, I have a coupon for buy-one-get-one-free ice cream, and he can’t have any, so there!
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Libra Sun: Scorp Moon:Saggo Rising: O+ in Virgo
I’ve perused those books and some things make sense and i could see how it might attract some men. I don’t see myself taking the advice because deep down much of it feels fake (for me) and i don’t do fake. In my younger years I’ve tried being more “socially acceptable” but it wears on you and leaves you unhappy/dissatisfied in the end. It was much better to embrace my inner weirdo.
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“embrace my inner weirdo.” I like this!
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i agree with pisces goat, i hate the dumb title ( i loathe that stitch and bitch thing too) so semantically i think its bilge but at the same time, i think an emotional kind of manual that reminds you that any relationship, in the very first instance, is a form of exchange, thats not a terrible thing. its useful for someone like me who is hindered by like like cinematic futurama vision and imbues people i hardly know with all sorts of special talents and qualities. i believe they can fly and turn into gold. i had the rules and thought it kind of sexist bollocks, so wasnt really a tool for me and i dated someone once who had read that vile thing the game or whatever its called where they teach men to reinforce womens insecurity, all junk. but i do concur that some people are just a bit loopsy when it comes to dating, it is a ritual really and so has aspects that can be categorised. and then yeah people move on from the book and find their own way in their own lingo with their own script. thats the beauty. i find psychobabble totally fascinating though. all the gender stuff is well hokey at times though.
im aqua, virgo rising, moon taurus, venus in pisces, mars in scorpio. -
I don’t really “get” dating, but I’m a predator. Apparently men like to chase women (which is the premise of The Rules) so that kinda explains why nobody is beating down my door either.
I find it hard to relate to a lot of these sort of self-help books. But I have a friend who absolutely swears by the Rules! She says it works, and it seems to be, for her. But I guess it can only really work if you change yourself inside, so that you are actually like that … and I don’t know that I can do that.
I also don’t like the idea of letting the man/other party do all the running and set the pace. The Rules says you don’t ask them out, never chase them, never call them etc etc. basically you don’t make the first move or push the relationship along. In practice this means, (if following these rules) if you want to do something spontaneous, you can’t, and you are waiting for him to set the agenda and suggest everything.
It just reeks of game-playing.
The big question is, what sort of man do you attract by playing by the Rules and would you really want a ma like that? I’m not too keen on “conquering hero” types, prefer the slightly vulnerable, sensitive but extremely good-looking types. Usually they need to be pursued with some vigour. I don’t think I really like men who try to set the agenda – it seems awfully controlling to me.
So I guess I’m the total candour sort, but not goobly – more a bit stark and apparently scary. *sigh*.
Evasive men are an absolute pain. I expect total honesty (and I’m a Scorpio, so I tend to verify it independently, lol), utter devotion, crawling over broken glass to get to me, etc etc. Only kidding about the last one. Sort of.
Treating them mean just seems to result longterm in a meaner, more angry and upset man. In the dating sense, I suspect that with someone like me they will just think “bitch” so best not to treat them too mean – I could probably do with being a little more “feminine” and sweeter lol!
I read “Why men love Bitches” but lent my copy to a friend and she never gave it back. But she needed it! (she’s too lovely)
Read one of the male players ones as well – it was interesting and probably of more help, although quite frankly all it did was expose his own clear feelings of inadequacy. Which i suppose was brave of him. He didn’t seem to get with very many particularly interesting women. But maybe that wasn’t the point. I didn’t think any of the lines would work on someone like me – would probably result in a slap or a yawn from me. But I probably am not the sort of girl that is gorgeous enough for them to pick on! >:(
As you can see i really get into reading them – if I can be bothered – most of them don’t say much of use actually. Probably the Scorp wanting to find stuff out/be clued up and armed beforehand thing.
I don’t know what approach works on different signs as I’ve only ever tried stalking/leaping out on unsuspecting prey. After the initial shock, they usually seemed pleased, with a few exceptions, whose signs I never did find out!
Also, the Rules says you should never sleep with someone on the first date. wtf? how do you get to the second date then? lol. more to the point, how do i know that i want to see them again? no point spending ages hanging out with a guy just to find out he is hopeless and inconsiderate in bed.
Yes, am scorpio, it IS all about sex.Scorp sun & moon, taurus rising, venus in saggitarius, mars in pisces, eros in scorpio, psyche in virgo.
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I totally relate except that even being so many of those things I don’t quite get how to pursue a man so I’m only like halfway there. The ones I land are by osmosis, I swear. I just want them so much they come to me but when that doesn’t work out and I end up in one of those weird mutual crushes I’m devastated that he doesn’t pursue me.
I’m glad you wrote this, reminds me of who I was pre-devastating-last-love.
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Gawd all this dating kerfuffle makes me want to heave. No offense to anyone’s comments on the thread, as we all have and are entitled to have our own experiences/perceptions – I’m just saying that is my overall attitude to the whole dating thing in general right now.
I suppose in my 20s when I was more interested in the dating/fling lifestyle I could probably relate, but now in my late 30s I’ve got a freakin life and it needs a lot of consistent attention! I can’t afford too much downtime due to relationships crapping themselves. I’ve accepted my inner nature is sensitive (Crab with venus in cancer for fark sakes!!) and whilst once upon a time I may have sought to feign Scorpionic femme fataleness or Gemini frivolity, now I just accept myself for who I am and what my limitations are; that being I don’t do breakups well, get no sense of satisfaction or contentment from flings, if I care/fall in love then it ain’t some thing-of-the moment, it goes deep, so if things don’t pan out, I’m the one that suffers unduly and hence my life suffers along with it.
I’ve gotten over the idea that I should toughen up or make a bunch of rules to overcompensate. Why the fuck should I? As Toro with HMBOTS said, any behaviour or set of rules and regulations that aren’t consistent with my inner nature are useless as they are not sustainable, nor do they attract the kind of people into my life whom I would really wish to establish intimate bonds with.
If you want to play games expect to reel in a player. If you want a genuine connection or partnership be yourself.
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your a honey prowin…
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aww thanks david … although when I first glanced at your comment it read as “your a honey prawn” hehe
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Cool! Who the hell has time for inauthenticity beyond the trainer wheel years?
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Couldn’t have put it better prowlncat. You really nailed the sensitive crab stuff, that’s me too, though Moon/Mars. Venus is in Gemini, Fish Asc and Leo Sun.
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AMEN prowlin. You said it all.
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yep SPOT ON prowlncat!!
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I detest these books and they depress me incredibly because I worry that I may be a fool not to believe in their ‘wisdom’ but I refuse to read them because they make dating and relationships sound like nothing I’d ever want any part of. I am an extreme romantic, believe in soul mates, the whole nine. Venus in Capricorn -which, I have to say, I don’t feel suits me at all but isn’t that what so many Capricorns say about their own sign?
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That said…. I have decided that only because of long traditions of certain things (which are often referred to as chivalry) I expect and allow men to open doors for me, pay for me on dates, etc. but I only converted to that recently because it seems ingrained in them that this is a very basic way in which you express to them that you understand your value and bad behavior from them will not be tolerated so if they really like you there should be no bullshit.
Also, I’m incapable of playing games or the ‘rules’ (other than mentioned above), etc. so with me it’s pretty much candour and I only go for love, anyway -like prowlncat.
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Venus in Pisces; Juno conjunct (l degree) Aqua Sun. I’m a watch what
he does and follow his lead but do your own thing when on your own;
let him know how much you love him, but love yourself too. Seems simple
to me but my other generation daughters think I’m a bit easy and able
to be controlled; one (an Aries) even says I’ve fregquently been abused. -
lol lol, i love other self help books but those pathetic relationship ones I give a WIDE berth to – because we’re all so different! and I usually hate being told what to do.
it’s more often that the man/woman book reflects the author’s own experience or poor research rather than actual relationship skills. Venus in Aries. -
Yes, I read this book. And I did end up throwing it against the wall.
Perhaps is my Aqua Moon but I resent having to cook my reactions up to a prescription which is not to say I don’t apply strategy at times. Just that if I do, I have to mean it, it has to be what I truly feel and who I truly am. After all, life has consequences that I would hate to risk whilst pretending to be a “bitch”.
I resent being told how to think or behave, but having said that if it works for some then fine. It doesn’t for me. It just makes me angry inside that somehow I have to lie that much to get someone to like me, and isn’t the point of someone loving you is because it’s for who you really are?
There are some time tested suggestions dating back from the dawning of womanhood, yes let men be men. Respect their nature but respect yours too. I think I just get upset when self-help books like this appear to fill a dearth created by confusion over who and what we are.
I never read the rules I think I saw the list and just walked away. But isn’t the author divorced?
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tati talking about sleeping with a man on a first date. Know a chap and he always tries to sleep with his women on the first date but if they do he really loses respect for them……
On the other hand a British famous female journalist always says you should sleep with them on the 1st date so you can get rid of the crap ones quickly….
take your pick!
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LOL. I agree with the journalist.
And anyway, your male friend is just as bad himself … surely he should have no respect for himself by his own strange moral code? What kind of game is he playing?
I think the problem is, he’s playing a game. I’ve no time for that & don’t like the duplicity of a man who doesn’t just come out and state his intentions clearly. Weird that he thinks there is something wrong with sleeping with someone at all, at any time, first, second, third or 31st date. Some strange hangup about sex? Poor guy, he needs to see someone about that.
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I remember talking to a bunch of young men once who assured me that any girl who had sex on the first date was an ‘unfit’ girlfriend. I replied ” So, you only want a girlfriend who’s not sexually attracted to you?”. They were a bit flabbergasted by that.
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Touche!
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In my thirties, a girlfriend and I came across “The Rules”. We got a chuckle and wondered if it might work.
Meanwhile, when talking about men we’d snap our figers and say “Rules,Rules…”… (like in the sixties beatnick era when they snapped their fingers and said “groove”). Was funny anyhow…
But got Barbara DeAngelis’ book “The Real Rules”. She lays down the real 411. Knew at the time that my boyfriend was failing miserably as he was one of the immature “chase and conquer” types which she outlines.
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Taurus Venus…
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If anyone’s interested, Jezebel has a scathing article on dating guides. (Mystic got in first though).
http://jezebel.com/5304527/dating-guides-are-hell-when-women-are-the-problem?skyline=true&s=i
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